Dovetail saw suggestions – Japanese?
Robbie
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Am just starting my self teaching of handcut dovetails. Was speaking with Marc Adams and he said he likes using japanese Dozuki saws for Dovetails. For those of you that concur, was brand / source would you suggest ? Really don’t know where to start. Saw Bridge city has a beautiful saw and it should be for $90.
For those of you that disagree with the Dozuki idea and are more of the L-N Independence mindset, sure would love to understand why. While I recognize that it is a matter of personal taste, in reality, once I learn my bad habits one way, I won’t likely consider the other. Hence, this first saw will dictate my dovetail future.
Thanks for taking the time to educate.
Robbie
Replies
just about any dozuki will cut well. I'd start with the cheaper stuff you can find at Woodcraft or similar store. About $30 will get you a good dozuki. You'll want a dozuki with a spine for your first.....I've heard many beginners kink their dozuki or break teeth off because they are a bit harsh one them. Personally, I've yet <hear me knocking on wood> to kink any of my japanese saws or to break any teeth either.
personally, I prefer pull saws over Western style saws.....thinner kerf, faster cuts....but Western style saws are easier for yourself to sharpen.....but then again most Japanese style saws sold today (other than the professional quality, hand-made ones) can't be resharpened as the teeth are too hard.
If you want to skip over the $30 entry level saws, the rip dozuki offered by Lee Valley at $70 is about the best value there is for Japanese style dovetail saws...IMO.
I am also quite lucky to be 10 - 15 minutes from Japan Woodworker....they have an extensive selection fo Japanese saws.......
Robbie,
I have the Dozuki saw and it was very nice...I did say was...tried to cut some hardboard with it and all the teeth were striped. At that point I decided to breakdown and buy the LN Independence. The beauty of the LN is that it makes you hold it correctly to work, and that is half the battle. After a very short time you'll be taught to keep your wrist stiff, position your body squarely to the stock and make long smooth strokes....it reminds me of shooting pool. The dozuki and other saws are fine once you learn the technique...but, I think, it is harder to start off with them...not impossible, just harder.
My pullsaw experience in a nut shell
1) Bought a Shark brand Ryoba style - POS
2) Bought a standard grade Japaneese Ryoba, cut very well but lost it's teeth rapidly in QSWO. Found out most wood in Japan is softwood so the standard saws aren't meant for hardwood.
3) Bought a "W" brand Dozuki and Ryoba from Rockler, both designed for hardwood. Both are excellent (from a neophyte perspective anyway) and replacement blades are reasonable.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
Hi, Robbie
I have to agree with B.G. The LN traditional grip makes a big difference to me. I started with with a Dozuki but just couldn't stay on the line very well. I was convinced that it would take years of practice to cut like a pro.
Then I tried the LN dovetail saw and found I could follow a line almost perfectly the first time. I have since bought the LN gents saw, but can not cut with it as well. I am firmly convinced it is all in the handle design.
"Laissez les bon coups roller...."
Dan
If you decide to go Japanese (I'd suggest an L-N or Adria western dovetail saw instead) make sure you buy one built for hardwoods. Most high-quality Japanese saws, those made in Japan by master craftsmen, are for soft woods only.
That said, you can cut dovetails with a cheap saw - western or eastern. The downside to this is that if your initial efforts are less than successful you will tend to want to blame your equipment. Therefore, buy quality and know that if your joints don't work out well then the fault lies solely with your poor technique.
Good luck. You've embarked on something very worthwhile.
Thanks. I bought a cheap dozuki on sale from Woodcraft for $35 bucks. May take it back and buy a L-N Independence and start practicing away.
I have the woodcraft Dozuki (Christmas present, 15 months old, but I know it is the $35 one)
I don't cut hand dovetails, but it is a great saw for any fine, precise cuts. I know a woodworker who often uses their dozuki as a regular saw when they don't want to get out and clean up the table saw - cuts faster than a regular hand saw. I don't read Japanese (the only instructions that came with mine), so I didn't know it wasn't supposed to be used for hard woods. I work with walnut, cherry, oak, maple, etc., and it has been fine.
I have lost a couple teeth by leaving it on the bench where it got bumped with something metal like a square. As I tried to bend a bent tooth back it broke off. But it still works fine and cuts smooth with a couple missing teeth. ________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
Robbie.. I have the LN dovetail saw. It lets you cut straight, narrow kerfs right out of the box regardless of your experience level. If you plan on sticking with hand cut DTs this is the right saw to start with in my opinion.
Robbie,
I have a Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw, and I couldn't be happier that I spent the big bucks to get it.
I don't think there's a real good technical reason to favor a western style saw over a Japanese style saw. I've seen beautiful work done with each.
For me it is a matter of comfort: what skills I already have, and what methods I have always used. I bought a Ryobe (I think it's a Ryobe--I could be wrong) a few years ago. I've used it a few times, but I can't seem to be able to get it to do what I want. I think that it's a matter of practice. But I'm unwilling to put in the practice because I've already used western style saws for so long.
For someone who already prefers, or knows how to use, one type or the other, I would never advise them to switch.
Alan
Cajun Bill, Dan, Alan:
Thanks for the advice on the Lie Nielsen. Given the precious little time I can devote to this woodworking passion / hobby, I decided that abbreviating the time spent learning was most important to me. Thus, while I really like the notion of using a Dozuki, I returned one yesterday and instead bought a Lie Nielsen Independence dovetail saw. Learned a few things in the process, as well.
I didn't know that the reason it is called an Independence saw was because it was originally made by the Independence company. The name "Independence" which is stamped onto the spine of the Lie Nielsen was to be only a temporary thing. Now as Lie Nielsen has generated its own brand awareness for the saw, they have started producing the saw without the Independence name stamping. Depending on the vendor, some will still have stock of the old and some will have only the new. Either way, it is a beautiful treasure that I am looking forward to having the privilege of learning to handcut dovetail joinery.
Best regards,
Bob
I think a lot of guys who went Japanese are coming back to their senses. I bloody well know a lot of saws were bought and effectively ruined sawing North American hardwoods. JPY chisels are nice, but pricey. So you bought Marples and the edges don't hold as long as you'd like them to... is a quick touch-up really that much of a bitch? Not really. It might be for the freaks who own five different grit waterstones and who look at the edge with a magnifying glass to see if they're done yet.
Your L-N saw is as good as any ever made.
Go cut some dovetails.
Robbie
I'm in the camp with the Lie-Nielsen saws. I have both a 15 ppi rip and 14 ppi crosscut and they are VERY NICE & VERY EASY TO USE.
Really fine Western furniture started to appear around the 15th century. They didn't use Japanese tools back then, and I think most European craftsman still use Western style tools.
I am not xenophobic and not overly biased against Japanese tools, but why the rush to something different when the tools you grew up with are just fine.
__________________________________________________________
Michael in San Jose
Freedom from mental disturbance is the very most for which one can hope.
Epicurus (341-270 BCE)
Well put.
I purchased lie nielsen dovetail saw, pricey but a real fien hand tool.
Well, I'm a newbie to this too. I bought a dozuki and was really pleased because it cut better than a saw I inherited. Of course, that saw was rusty and had almost as many teeth as kinks.
But, I have trouble cutting dovetails with teh dozuki: the blade wanders, I've kinked, teeth have popped, the whole hell. I really don't like the straight handle. I DO like the pull action.
I'm kind of thinking about the value of the heresy of taking a western saw, and flipping it backwards...
With a quality Western saw in hand, you won't mind cutting on the push stroke.
Fine, fine, I'll go get a good DT saw.
Of course, everyone luvs the Lie Neilsen. Anyone have opinions on other brands? How aboot the Vladimer Spehar saws?
Jgourlay,
Given your stated preference for a pull stroke saw I think I'd get a better quality Dozuki before I went to the expense of a Lie-Nielsen or Spehar Toolworks Saw. Even if you splurge on the Bridge City model which I own, it is only $90 versus much more for either of the above. It tracks extremely well and I love the fine kerf.
As one who has used both types, I think the choice of Japanese or Western Saw is really a matter of preference, especially when it comes to cutting dovetails. I have nothing against either Lie-Nielsen or Spehar Toolworks and in fact I own products manufactured by both of them. I just think the Japanese route is more economical for someone starting out.
SoCal Don
I taught myself to cut dovetails from a couple of books. Used several different saws (western and japanese, though none of them were LN or the like) during the learning process - which is by no means complete. What I've learned so far is that most any saw can produce good results if it is properly sharpened and well-tuned. I currently use a 16 tpi cheap lee valley back saw for thin stock and an old no-name 10 tpi back saw for stock over 1/2". Learn to sharpen a saw like Tage Fried explains in his book. It is easy to do and 10 minutes of effort can turn even an inexpensive saw into a very useful and accurate tool.
My only experience with Japanese saws is with the cheap kinds sold by Lowes, etc. I find that they cut well when new, but they are rather fragile. The teeth are long and the steel is very hard and it doesn't take much of a bump to bend/break one. Once that happpens, the saw can't be repaired (at least not easily).
They're fine too from what I've heard if I may throw my $.02 in. Look a decent dovetail saw is going to run you $100 to $140 bucks. In the grand scheme of things that's not a huge amount of money for a tool that gets used quite often.
Don't drive yourself crazy brand shopping. L-N and Adria get rave reviews. Get one.
I've plugged the Spehar saws quite often. Mine is wonderful. Can't say enough about it. Beautiful and cheaper than the Adria and LN.
Well then, that's what I'll go with!
As to temptation to turn a Western saw around ... Krenov taught dovetails with a cheap Zona saw, with the blade inserted 'backwards' for a pull stroke. Cheap, easy, cuts straight. They still recommend it at College of the Redwoods' Fine Furniture program, they even stock replacement blades for the students!
I have the LV dozuki and an Adria, but I admit, I reach for my Zona still.
Clay
Robbie,
I have both American and Japanese saws, and they both have their uses. It's hard to beat the flexible blades of Japanese hand saws for trimming dowels, and the like, flush with the surface of a board - although there are American saws that'll do the same work. My LN saws are a joy to use, but they're not always the first tool I reach for - depends on the task at hand. To me it's not an either/or proposition: I own and use both kinds.
You might want to contact the folks who carry, and specialize in, Japanese saws to make sure you are getting a saw that is suited to the work you intend to use it for. The folks at The Japan Woodworker are friendly and know their products very well - including their limitations, as are the people at Hida Tool in the SF bay area.
Have fun!
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Not to highjack this thread, but there is a terrific video by Taunton on cutting Dovetails by Frank Klaus or something like that. Very old, about 1984 or so.
By way of introduction, I am not very smart, just a dumb carpenter that occasionally tries to make furniture projects as a hobby. I tried to to use the Leigh jig, spent upwards of $600-800 for the darn thing, all the videos, manuals, bits, etc, and after 40 solid hours, could not cut a dovetail to save my life. Oh, and two D handle routers, too. What I waste of money. Stupid jig.
So then I got this Taunton video about 8-10 years ago for a lousy $16, and this guy, Frank Klaus, makes a full set of dovetailed drawers, right before your eyes in about 15 minutes, actual time!
This wizard never once used a tape measure or any layout tool other than a stupid pencil and marking guage. Not even to size the drawers!
He eyeballed the dovetails, and cut them with an ordinary 16tpi backsaw in less than a 1-2 minutes. I am not exaggerating here. It took another 5-10 minutes to chop them out. For anyone interested in cutting dovetails, the video is a must, if for nothing else to see an incredible craftsman.
So about 10 years ago, I watched this video two times. Then, armed with a plain Stanley backsaw ($25), a pencil and an ordinary square, I tried to make a set of dovetailed drawers free hand. To my amazement, I made a complete dovetail drawer, first time, no mistakes, in about 30 minutes.
I never once used a tape measure or layout tool other that a cheappie square and a pencil. I still have that set of dovetailed drawers, which I saved as a tribute to how great the video was and how easy it is to make fine hand cut dovetails if you have a good teacher.
I can not say enough good things about this video.
The bottom line is that you don't need this LN saw (whatever that is, never heard of it) to make dovetails. And if you think that buying expensive tools you will make dovetails easier and better, you are wrong. If you don't believe me, watch this video. I am convinced that he could build a rocking chair with a stone knives and bearskins.
Just my thoughts.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Boris:
Thanks for the advice... really, really appreciated. Will try to order or buy today. Then practice with my new L-N dovetail saw. Saw it and couldn't resist. Will let you know how I make out with the first drawer.
By the way, here is the url for the video from Taunton: http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/061012.asp
Robbie
Edited 3/17/2004 4:39 pm ET by Robbie
Yep, thats the video.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Boris
I saw Klaus in a seminar years ago at Highland Hardware here in Atlanta. He cuts DT's while he's looking and talking to the audience. He just ocassionally glances at the work. He can do them in his sleep, IMO.
Stems from the fact when he was an apprectice with his dad in his youth, he cut 1000's a day for his dad's production shop. If you ever have a chance to read about how he got where he is, it's very interesting and you understand why he's all business. But he can cut DT's..
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge: That is pretty amazing. I have a difficult time sleeping in my sleep, let alone cutting dovetails. Am excited to learn 2 things: handcutting dovetails and properly using (and buying :-)) handplanes. Just bought Hack's book on the latter and it is fascinating and enlightening.
Was wondering if you and others have similar tendencies. Over the past few weeks, I've taken on some jig building projects - just little things mind you. Am building some TS sleds (2) and a bunch of zero clearance inserts all using baltic birch ply and laminate, a la Biesemeyer.
I steal time between 8 and 10 pm when my little ones are asleep to forward the projects along. The strange thing is that when I am not in the shop, or am just waiting to fall asleep, I think about these projects constantly. Only wish I had the time to finish them off and move on to building stuff. In many respects, these projects are just as rewarding. My sleds are pretty neat. Heavy, but pretty neat.
Rob
>> I have a difficult time sleeping in my sleep, let alone cutting dovetails.
LOL! Great line. I've been living in that territory for about the last five years. It's a drag waking up in the morning and not feeling rested.
Rob
I started loving this wood thing in 1973. At this point I don't daydream about it but won't shy away from a conversation about it either. Back then we didn't have many books and no mags I am aware of till FWW came along in the late 70's.
Most everything was what you ocassionally learned from others and you learned as you did. The rapid exchange of info that is attainable now through modern technology is amazing. Give thanks for that as it was a slow process of advancement back then.
Just remember that there are other important things that you don't need to neglect also. That would be a mistake as life is short. Grab all the "gusto" you can as one of these days you won't be around to grab it. ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge..jt Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
A counterpoint to the praise for the Franz Klausz video. I think looking at that video is about the worst thing a beginner could do. It was for me. I watched it with awe and figured I should be able to do the same thing with a little practice. Then I realized that the difficulty with dovetails is all the things Franz doesn't talk about - for example, how do you cut a line exactly perpendicular to the board? Sure, he can do it in his sleep, but that's because he's cut 10,000 freaking drawers. For a beginner it makes MUCH more sense to have some layout tools rather than try to do it by eye, then practice and practice some more. Trying to just emulate Franz will be extremely frustrating for most people, which is the worst possible outcome.
Imagine a first-time basketball player learning how to shoot by watching a video of Michael Jordan showing how "easy" it is, or a first-time skier taking a first lesson by watching the World Cup. It would be ridiculous. A beginner needs to have the skills and the processes broken down into accessible steps that can be mastered before moving on to the next step.
I have more fun watching the video now that I know better what I'm doing. For a beginner my advice is to stay away from it.
MARK
You have a valid point as I personally would recommend the little short book by Ian Kirby before I recommended the video. I have not seen the video, but if it's anything like the way he presents dovetails in seminar, he's going so fast you can't keep up. That was my experience anyway.
In seminar, you have to ask him after the fact about a point you missed and he will answer. You can't ask a video and get a reply. At least not in my neck of the woods. That may not be true elsewhere. You know we southerners are light years behind on technology. :>)...
Well, better go out and rake the yard for preparation for mowing the lawn tomorrow. 75 degrees in Atlanta today and no sign of snow. Guess we can put up that snow shovel down here for another year. he.. he...
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
And I have to put away my skis. Damn.
Mark
The good news for that aspect is Delta can take us to the slopes without having to shovel our way to the airport. I gave it up about 12 years ago after having one knee blown out skiing and the other a victim of sky-diving. Guess I'm getting old.
Just a note that most probably don't realize. Atlanta and Miami have the two largest "Ski Clubs" in the country with over 6000 count (those figures are actually from about 15 years ago). My first wife was in the nucleus of the club and we would lead two of about 14 planned trips with over 200 people each year. All our expenses were paid for the trip and we would get a bonus trip the preceding summer to co-ordinate with the ski resort we were leading the trip too. Not a bad deal at all IMO. I certainly looked forward to winter in those days.
Regards...
sarge.jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Yes, Texas also has a relatively huge ski population with lots of clubs. They're pretty close to Colorado, of course - lots of flights from Dallas to Denver. In fact, the guy who was rated #1 in the NASTAR racing (NASTAR, not NASCAR) was from Texas. In the summer he'd put on roller blades and practice rolling down the exit ramps on Texas interstate highways.
Sarge:
I've got to be in Aspen for a day next week and as of right now, I will be able to see the mountains from a meeting room, but not ski them. Definition of furstration? May have to figure out how to navigate this.
Rob
Robbie
I can think of worst places to be at, even if you can't hit the slopes. Colorado in the summer is very nice also. I was stationed at Ft. Carson down near Colorado Springs for about a year with the 5th Infanty Division. I took LRRP (long range recon patrol) school there and shot with the 5th Division rifle team. I loved the mountain training we got at LRRP school that was taught by Pop Sorensen. Pop was over instrutors at Aspen in those early days I believe and was also a mountain climber from Sweden. Learned a lot from the mountain training in that school. Our gradution from his course was climbing Pikes Peak.
I like to go up into the mountains and visit the old "ghost towns" from the silver, copper and gold mines. Lots of aura floating around in those places. Was pretty fascinating for an old country boy from GA.. ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Mark
The first time I went to Creste Butte, there seemed to be all Texans. Not that far for some of them that they can even drive it. You're right about us southerners and doing what we can to stay tuned.
The Atlanta Ski Club had an event in the fall one year in Mid-town Atlanta where 3rd St. was cordoned off. A large ramp was placed at the top of the down-hill street and tons of crushed ice was placed on the street. Anheiser-Busch paid and co-ordinated that little feat as they were the main sponsor. You went down the carpeted ramp and another 300 yards to the finish. A tad slow on the ice chunks, but people that had never skied loved it. There were clubs from all over the S.E. that showed and it was an individual and family racing event. My son and I got 1st place in the father and son event. Not a big deal, but it landed us a brand new set of Rossi ski's.
Love Steam-Boat, Jackson Hole and Big Sky! I miss the skiing but the knees don't. The snow-board thing had not become popular till just after I gave it up. Looks like fun, but I couldn't say for sure.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
All the places you mention are wonderful. For skiing, Jackson Hole tops everything. Best skiing in the world.
Unfortunately, Jackson the town is changing. It was a cowboy town, but now is beginning to be Aspen-ized. Until several years ago there was a drugstore on the central square that served one of the best milkshakes I've ever had. It was a highlight of the trip (shows what a swinger I am). Then a couple of years ago my buddy and I saunter up to the square after our first day's skiing and find the drugstore's been replaced with a freaking oriental carpet store. In Jackson, Wyoming! I still haven't got over it.
Last year my older son and I spent four days at the Steep & Deep ski camp at Jackson. This year one of the other members of our group, a 31 year old woman, was killed skiing at Jackson. Within a two week period Jackson had three deaths - all head injuries, all involving trees. One of the three was a guy skiing with his young son. Well, it's a dangerous sport but these deaths are still a shock.
Mark
Sorry to hear about "The Hole" changing flavor. One of the things that I really liked was the "cowboy" flavor. Love the resturants and bars with that in-formal flavor. I'm not into the Aspen atmoshere (been there once and that was enough to get the tee-shirt).
As I said, I miss it but life goes on and I still manage to have a pretty good time regardless. The day that ceases I'm checking out of "hotel happiness" period. ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Mark,
I have Frank Klausz's video and completely understand the point you're making.
If you want an approach 180-degrees from Klausz's, check out "Hand-Cut Dovetails" and "Advanced Hand-Cut Dovetails" by Rob Cosman. His approach to dovetailing is detail-oriented, methodical, and dedicated to very specific procedures.
Cosman is, I believe, the Canadian distributor for Lie-Nielsen. His videos are available through the LN website.
Good luck,-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
"for example, how do you cut a line exactly perpendicular to the board?"
With his method it doesn't have to be "exactly perpendicular to the board". Because whatever the pins look like, they are traced to the tails, and cut. The pins don't have to 11 degrees.
The line only has to be "exactly perpendicular to the board" if you want it to be, and for visual appearance. If you are striving for pins and tails which ar "exactly perpendicular to the board" then by all means, use another system other than Klaus's.
The "exactly perpendicular to the board" method involves separating the board into distinct equal parts, laying out the precise shape of the dovetail either with an adjustable square or a template, and extending lines and sawing to those lines. I am not saying that method is bad, the dovetails will certainly have better appearance and be more uniform.
Klaus's method is just incredibly fast and easy.
I was a beginner as I stated, and so stupid I couldn't use a Leigh jig. I watched Klaus's video twice, and only twice, made 2-3 notes on a piece of paper, and walked out to the shop and made a dovetailed drawer in about 30 minutes. First time with a $29 Stanley saw and some dumb chisels and a $20 layout guage. Maybe I got incredibly lucky; maybe I am really talented, but I doubt it.
Now the dovetails were far from perfect, yeah they had some gaps in them, but they were good enough to be a keeper. I was pretty darn proud.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
The bottom line is, whatever works for you.
I have a pretty good idea that you must have some in-born talent. To cut a dovetail that fits, the pins must be cut perpendicular to the board, while the tails must be cut perpendicular to the face of the end grain. If you miss either one of those things, you're going to end up with either a lot of gaps or some incredible compound angle dovetail that I have trouble even thinking about. The only thing that Franz's method allows you to improvise is the angle of the tails, which is fine.
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