Got a new dove-tail toy for Xmas. This morning I decided to use it for the first time. Went to the shop and cut 3 pins and tails just to see how it would perform. Set-up, cutting, cleaning, planing down end grain and a light coat of Watco took about 30 minutes as I was not familar with the new tool. It preformed fine once I got the feel for it.
I was amused a month ago with a thread that dealt with DT’s. There was a debate about jig versus hand-cut. Many of those that advocated hand-cut were keen on the LN dove-tail saw. Quite an expense, but well worth it according to many. Others mentioned the vast difference in looks of a jig-cut and a hand-cut. Others, the difference between a good and bad DT saw.
My curiousity is aroused as to how many can idenify the difference between jig-cut and hand-cut DT’s? If hand cut, can you tell the difference between an expensive, semi-expensive and cheap DT saw used. Is this myth or is there really something to the tool produces a signature.
Here is a through DT. Sorry, I’m no photographer. These are the best I can do with my cheap camera. If you feel you can idenify the method give it a shot. If you think hand cut, is it a expensive saw, semi or lower priced? Want to have a little fun? Jump on board and give your opinion!
Welcome to DT 101… ha.. ha..
Proud member of the : “I Rocked With ToolDoc Club” …. :>)
Replies
Sarge,
I'd say jig cut because of the uniform spacing of the pins, but if you take care in layout hand cut can be exactly like this too.
Bit hard to say as the photos are a trifle blurry
CHeers,
eddie
who doesn't really mind what saw he cuts dovetails with.
eddie
Thanks for the quick reply. I won't reveal the answer for a day or so. I was kinda bored after just finishing donated Xmas toys and had been pondering this question since your thread. I thought it might generate some interest other than Left Tilt or Right Tilt and satisfy my curiousity.
BTW...... Entry level, hobbyiest and all levels of professionals are welcome. If you're right, you're right. If you're wrong, you're wrong and no big deal. With any kind of luck, we might all learn something if you're like me and never gave it any thought as I didn't before eddie's thread! ha..ha..
Regards, eddie...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I think they are hand cut different widths on the heads of the pins..
as far as saw... good saw or bad saw shouldnt make a difference its more about technique.
Had another look there Sarge,
The pins aren't quite as uniform as my first impression - oh well, we'll just have to wait and see.
All the best,
eddie
Edited 12/28/2003 11:45:29 PM ET by eddie (aust) - spelling mistake
Edited 12/28/2003 11:46:00 PM ET by eddie (aust)
Hand cut....nicely done Sarge. Brian
I think the main thing people look for in distinguishing hand-cut and router cut dovetails is the spacing. Dovetails where the tails are wide and pins are narrow are considered more refined. Something like a Keller jig could not accomplish thia as the pins and tails are roughly the same size. A Leigh or a Porter-Cable with the adjustable template can achieve this type of spacing, but only up to a certain point as it is limited by a router bit's geometry. A dovetail saw can make the type of cut into the tail board in which the space for the pin tapers to almost a triangle.
They are jig cut just look at how the pins totally ignore the grain, trypical of jig cut joints — if they were hand cut, the maker would have put some effort into aligning the grain with the tails ;-)
But, we know you like a joke or three and you said Set-up, cutting, cleaning, planing down end grain and a light coat of Watco took about 30 minutes I know of no jig (except perhaps the Angle Master) where this would be possible. So they are definitely hand cut. Also knowing your procivilities they were cut with an expensive saw my guess is a LN, not because the Adria is second rate, rather you have a preference for American made tools.
BTW, nice joint
Ian
ian
"But, we know you like a joke or three".....
Deception to make it more difficult! I can't imagine why that even crossed your mind! ha.. ha.. ha..ha..ha..
BTW, the Adria or Pax are definitely not second rate by any means. An I will add that quite a number of my hand tools are not made in the U.S..
Also the stock is southern yellow pine and random scraps grabbed from a box. I picked up what was on-hand and worked with it as best as would be allowed. This was a new tool test and the questions presented here were an after-thought.
Hope that helps.... :>) he..he..
BTW, anyone out there lurking that wants to get their feet wet, jump in here. An excellent opportunity to get started if you are reluctant. You have a 50-50 chance of being correct, just as some of these seasoned vets do. And if you're wrong, you haven't lost a dime and you have gained confidence posting...
Got to go to work and build some new kick-panels for a late 60's Mustang that we are building for Hot Rod Mag. "Mustang Sally" awaits my arrival. ha.. ha..
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 12/29/2003 11:47:31 AM ET by SARGE
Edited 12/29/2003 11:53:51 AM ET by SARGE
Sarge,
I'll say hand-cut. Hope you had a great Christmas, and wanted to let you know that your old Porter Cable router has been getting a lot of work lately.
Sorry to be a spoiler, but the photo is of such poor quality, I simply cannot understand how anyone can venture anything but a guess.
Ditto. For all I can see, it could be a miter joint with the pins and tails painted on.
Ditto Sophie and Uncle Dunc. I can't focus well enough to make tails or heads (or pins) of them.
". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
I was hoping to draw more lurkers out of silence. I remember lurking for 3 weeks here several years ago and that first post was tough. Welcome Lou! Very few bite and the one's that do have been innoculated. Jump in on ocassion and don't be afraid to ask questions. You will learn if you do. :>)
What was my point here? There are those that know little of the finer points of dove-tails and won't ask. They don't want to be a bother. They read a few books on how and watch a film if they can afford to. I have read several books and watched Klaus cut em' on two occasions. The books or Klaus (and he knows what he's doing) didn't touch some of the finer points, IMO. They were more concerned on how, not what you're shooting for in final result.
Hopefully, someone has walked away with a better sense of the over-all picture. The real point is I didn't make one, you did with your responses that nailed some of the "fine points" that go beyond the "how". I picked up a tip from Greg B. I hope some others that might be lurking did too. If I had cut those DT's random as most hand-cut are, you would have taken one second to know. But there are entry-levels lurking that are hesitant to ask. You guys just completed DT 101 and instead of attending, you were the instructors. Job well done!
The dove-tails were hand-cut as most know. They were not measured. Just eye-balled to assimulate the non random-ness of jig cut. The new Xmas saw is sort of a joke of sorts. I ask my wife for an expensive LN or Pax. ( just ragging her as those chances are slim to none) She just laughed and the "new saw' showed up in my Xmas stocking. I got a sleeve of electrical tape and a roll of duct with it. ha... ha...
The mystery DT "toy" is actually a mitre saw. $4.30 at HD with the 20% off and tax. 12 pt. and a bit thick of a kerf. She chose the plastic handle over the slightly more expensive wood handle. Probably figured if I ever cut DT's under-water, the handle won't get water-logged. The Buck Bros. miter took a little getting used too. But with the aid of a "cheater" kerf from the tip of a chisel just inside the waste side of the line, the kerf got the blade started and it stayed on-line with the guidance of the sawyer. I've had worst to work with.
Saws don't cut DT's, they are just a tool in the hands of the controling factor. The sawyer. Bad DT's are not the results of a bad dove-tail saw. You figure the rest.
Pics follow. Sorry to those that couldn't see the originals. I stated that I have a cheap camera and I don't do photograpy. Not likely to replace it soon, so I just work with what I got and do the best I can. Sorry you won't get to see me and the Buck Bros. working hand in hand. That in itself is the making of a 8" x 12" glossy suitable for framing. ha..ha.. ha..ha..ha..
Regards and thanks to all.....
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 12/30/2003 1:02:33 AM ET by SARGE
Sarge,
Good job.
Cheers,
eddie
Thanks eddie. Enjoyed doing something a little different for a change. Just pursuing the slant you had in a thread not to long ago. Four new WW'ers from a local club here got a big kick from the post and picked up a few pointers. They'll listen to what all you "sages" say, but don't pay too much attention to an old "over the hill" hobbyiest like me. ha.. ha..
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi Sarge,
No probs - as I said in that thread, your dovetails there look perfectly serviceable and a bit better than the ones I cut in a rush too, I might add.
Glad that others could get something out of it.
Have a good new years, ours starts with a BBQ in an hour or so (4:30pm) and then on into the night.
Our new year ticks over about 7am 31 Dec your time, so as you're reading this, I'm seeing in 2004.
Cheers,
eddie
ps: Coastal NSW temp - link Currently 80F and humid.
Edited 12/30/2003 11:28:00 PM ET by eddie (aust)
eddie
You had to remind me it's summer in Australia did you! It's going down to 31 degrees farenheit here in Atlanta to-night. Just imagine what our northern states are feeling. Lots of snow out in the Rockie Mountains around Utah and Colorado.
Enjoy the B-B-Q... and have a one of those feisty, local Australian brews for me. How long do you have to rotate one of those "crocs" on a spit over the flames before they're done? I'm working up an appetite just thinking about it. ha.. ha...
Cheers on New Year's....
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge,
I'm especially enjoying the BBQ as I put off driving home and back again today - about 3-4 hours each way, depending upon traffic.
eddie
ps: knocked the top off the first one and it doesn't taste half bad!
eddie
See the post to ian. He's on the way with an apple for the "crocs' mouth. Gives it that nice "southern B-B-Q" touch. An pay attention to what I said about no swimming for an hour after you eat and digest. Those Great Whites can sense barbequed "croc" for miles.
You guys enjoy the New Years and tune in tomorrow nite about this time. You can use that for an excuse to celebrate New Years in the U.S. Any excuse is reason enough to celebrate. ha.. ha...
Cheers...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Truly enjoyed the class Professor Sarge. Even if what I'm spending my time making right now (kid's adirondacks) doesn't require dovetails it was fun to get in on the discussion and learn a little. RobinIt's football time in Tennessee! Go Vols!!!!
T L G
Glad you enjoyed and hopefully picked up a few good points made by the posters. The closest I come to a Professor is I slept at a Holiday Inn near Ga. Tech last nite. ha.. ha...
Regards....
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
So ummmmmmm..... you're saying they're easy then Sarge..?? ;)
canna try them right now...the bench is buried under a bookcase in progress.Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike
It's not a book-case. The "first lady" requested a croquet stand as she has about a trillion scans of various yarn. I have never seen a croquet stand, never heard of one or even know if one exist. So, I just designed one as she told me what it has to do, hold and function.
Dadoes easy? Nah, I've seen Frank Klaus cut them by the dozens with his eyes closed. I have to keep mine open and cut them one at a time. ha.. ha..
Evening Mike...
sarge..jt Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge,
thanks for this.
now, do I need to get an apple for the teacher?
ian
A Killian's Irish Red will suffice. Send the apple to eddie as he's-B-Qing a croc over open flames as we speak. He can stuff it in the mouth for effect. The croc's or his. After a couple of those knock-out Aussie beers you guys brew, nobody will notice the difference.
And if you happen over his way, remind him not to go snorkeling for shark till an hour after he eats. Don't need to get stomach cramps when your trying to out-run those Great Whites with a belly-full of "croc".
Hey, this is sounding better by the moment. Got to run as I'm gonna call Quantas to see if they got any seats available for the next flight out of Atlanta. If they're booked an I have to row as last time, I may be running a couple of hours late. You guys just save a Tuhey's for me. ha.. ha..
Cheers and Happy New Years...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
My wife happenned to look over my shoulder here, Sarge.
There is a very strong vote to put the apple in my mouth, shut me up by keeping it there and then, if I'm not careful, use me in place of the croc.
The best of both worlds, according to her.
Have a good night.
eddie
eddie
I think the look you just got from your wife is about the same in every country in the world. They just don't understand how serious we guys are. ha.. ha...
Evening...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Evening Sarge,
as part of my atonement, I'm off to get the washing in.
I tried really hard and I think that I can remember the last time I was serious. But then again, it may be my memory playing tricks on me.
Cheers,
eddie
eddie
By the time you read this it will already be 2004 in Australia and hopefully all those "Aussie spirits" will have passed from your body. Take two aspirin and with any kind of luck it will all come out "in the wash".
My highest regards to Mrs. eddie for tolerating our joking around. Sounds like a good oportunity to take her out for dinner and a little attention to get the New Year off on the right foot! ha.. ha...
Cheers...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge
some shots (not mine) from last night
Happy New Year
Ian
BTW threw a white pointer on the barbie tonight. unfortunately just as it was ready a kill-joy came buy and did a heavy metals analysis — too high to eat AND the cats wont eat cooked fish Oh well, it's back to barramundi and Tassie Salmon
Edit: the photos — two of the photos are the same, until I work out how to delete an attachment, look at NYE Sydney 3.JMP rather than NYE Sydney 3.BMP
Nice, Ian.
Barramundi is the best fish I've ever eaten, bar none.
In Cairns they served it at little street cafes, seared in an iron skillet. Very nice.
Question for you - seeing the Sydney Harbor Bridge in the photos reminded me to ask - do they still play Rugby League at Leichardt Oval in Balmain? I thought watching matches there was great value for the money. Still got my Balmain Tigers jersey around here somewhere.
Happy New Year.
Ed
The Tigers merged with the Magpies (Western Suburbs) about 5 years ago and the new team (West Tigers) is based around Campbelltown – I think. As to games at Leichardt Oval, I just don't know. My interest in League sort of disappeared as a result of the League Wars during the 1990s.
Happy New Year
Ian
Ahhhrgh! Western Suburbs! You're killing me, Ian! All that history and tradition down the tubes! How could they do it? I was really quite a Balmain fanatic during my two years in Australia - I remember driving around in the car for two hours to listen to a game on the radio that for some reason I couldn't get at home. Western Suburbs! Ahhrggh!
Ed
Calm down and quit throwing those empty beer bottles. A few of them are hitting the side of my house. You know that things are different than when you and I were roaming the streets. We just have to except change. ha.. ha...
The neighbor...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Ed
There is sure to be someone here who has a better insight than me but from my perspective and what I remember it all went something like this:
Australia is a big sparsely settled place where, because of distance and a small population, infrastructure costs a bomb. The result is that most infrastructure is government owned. TV was about the only example of competing private infrastructure but not if you live outside a big city. To get TV into the remote areas a communications satelite would be nice but because of the small number of people involved it's a commercial no go. So the Government steps in and buys a satelite. So now everyone can watch their favourite pollie perform on TV inbetween adds and soap operas. When the time comes to replace the satelite, the Government wants out so they sell the satelite operation to the private sector and throw in a long distance phone licience to sweeten the deal. We now (for the first time ever) had telecom competition but only for long distance and mobiles. The last mile to every home was still held by the Telecom gorilla. The private operator casts around for technology to cover this last mile and settles on cable – I can hear the MBA now "hey the Government wants competition. We'll use our phone line to give them CableTV! The punters will love it. But we need content. I know let's give em sport" So started the cable TV arms race closely followed by the League Wars as rival telcos and media barrons vied for control of rugby league. We ended up with two "national" league competitions, neither of which was viable. Player salaries went so high that we went close to reducing the competition to only 6 teams (there being only so much money from advertisers, sponsors and the like) and the my local team sapect of the sport was almost destroyed. As part of the deal that brought outright hostilities to a halt, those Sydney clubs without telco or media barron support were forced to merge Wests joined with Tigers, Norths with Manly, Saints with Wollongong — Souths were thrown out altogether. Since then the Norths–Manly marriage seems to have failed and it looks like Manly will be back as a stand alone next season, Saints and Wollongong looks more and more like a take over by St George, and the Rabbitos (Souths) are back. I'm not sure how Balmain and Wests are getting along but once the competition out grew Sydney's boundaries and went national there were only two options — close or merge Sydney clubs or force Sydney teams to relocate to other cities. Interestingly, the Australian Rules comp (based in Melbourne) adopted the later strategy with great success and no warfare
Ian
Thanks Ian. I'm resigned to it, now. I guess it could be worse. They could have made my Balmain club merge with (God forbid) Canberra, or even more unthinkable, a team from Queensland.
I remember the first time I saw rugby league in person, at Leichardt Oval - I thought, this may be the greatest sporting event I've ever seen in my life. We had been playing this touch version of rugby at lunch in the RAN squadron I was in, and I, as a Yank, had no clue as to what I was doing but I remember thinking 'This is more aerobic than full-court basketball. This may be the most aerobic thing I've ever done in my life!' Well, as soon as I saw Rugby League, it all suddenly made sense to me - what we were trying to simulate with the "touch" version of the game.
Sorry to hijack the thread. Take care.
ian
Thanks for the pics. I saw most of the fireworks on TV yesterday. One station had good coverage of the celebration there. Beautiful fire-works display. You guys and gals be careful, cause we're keeping visual tabs. ha.. ha..
The fish sounds great. I could spend the rest of my days eating from the ocean. Mackeral and a few of the oily fish are about the only exclusions. All the shell-fish are delights too. Learned a few tricks from all those Cajun folks down in southern Louisiana that put them at the top of my culinary list.
It's New Years here, so just keep celebrating. I started with you guys in Sdyney and have just moved around the globe as they progressed. Hey, why not?
Cheers to all of you there in Sdyney and the continent...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Beautiful pics - we do most of our BIG fireworks around the 4th of July - most of what we have for New Years is more noise.It's football time in Tennessee! Go Vols!!!!
Is it just my neighborhood, or has New Year's Eve become some sort of justification for anyone owning a gun to discharge it into the air around midnight?
tony b.
Dear Ian,
You can keep Great Whites! Wow, not here in the US. (The land of the free?) How big?
John
Great fireworks too! Mabe I should move!
John
Why not? Sarge and I are thinking of converting the Opera House to a shop. Once the renovations were complete, there'd be room for you (and about 50 others) too!
Ian
The Opera House....I like that. One question, does it have a dock?
John
Of course, though you might have to use a tender if it's more than about 100 ft long.
J M
The nice part is you can see the zoo from the shop, ughh..... opera house. It's a hill with a path that winds down from the top to bottom on an island in the harbor. I get to see a zoo every week-day when I go to my part-time work, but not out in the harbor. ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Being an ex-teacher, I thought that lesson was masterful. So masterful that you talked me into trying it. Been saying (to myself) that I was going to do it, but haven't had the guts yet. Tomorrow is the day. Thanks.
Marv
Marv
Thanks for the compliment. I am far from a qualified teacher. I do some instruction locally in clubs with new-comers to WW. I don't teach them, just instruct and show them how to do a few things they don't know how to do.
They learned a few new twists from the thread they would not have by just reading a book. The best teacher I ever had was very masterful at keeping you focused by doing things in a way that kept you interested in the subject.
And besides, they pay attention to these guys as I have convinced them all the posters are being considered for the WW Hall of Fame. Sounds better coming from that level than an old washed up 30 year hobbyiest without a clue. ha.. ha..
Keep focused on the DT's. Be patient and don't worry about a mistake. Nobody (maybe Frank Klaus) ever cut a first one without one. With practice, they will become as simple as driving your car. The more you cut, the better you get. The better you get, the more you will cut. And you'll be proud of your intial trails and tribulations.
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
OK, Sarge, I'll bite. I'm a lurker who's enjoyed your many posts, so I'll jump in this time and say... hand cut. I'm with Ricky as far as the aesthetics of a hand-cut joint that no router bit could cut. They're no stronger, but sure look better. As far as the Lie-Nielsen saw, I did have the opportunity to try one out, but I prefer my Japanese dozuki. Not that I want to start the whole push - pull saw controversy... ;)
Regards,
-Lou
Sarge has now split this thread into TWO very important issues
1) Machine cut...
2) More importantly, what 8-cyl engine will you drop in that Mustang? 289? 302? 350? A rare 390 or maybe a 428? Just remember...
"A six is for chicks"
tony b.
Tony
Sorry, a little late getting here.
"More importantly, what 8 cylinder engine will you drop in that Mustang"? "289, 302, 350, 428 or a rare 390"? "A six is for chicks"....
Tony, it's a 66' Mustang that were preparing for demonstration. It will appear in Hot Rod Magazine in the near future as several other projects we have built recently. We've added a few modifications in the engine compartment in this one.
Now my question is "if a six is for chicks", what category would a 2003 4.6 litre super turbo-charged Cobra engine with 700 + Horse-Power fall into? This one is dedicated to the one and only "Mustang Sally". Sally's quite a Gal! And of course we're southern gentlemen. Ride....... Sally .. Ride!!!! ha..ha.. ha..ha..ha..
Happy New Year...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 12/31/2003 8:09:14 PM ET by SARGE
Hey Sarge! OK, I'll throw my two cents in. I say hand cut.
Bert
Okay - I'm going to guess jig - I'm thinking "getting used to" wouldn't apply so much to a "new" but "better" saw. Since the only dovetails "I've" cut were done in class after the instructor set up the jig, I'm clueless as to how long it would take a hunky, skilled fella' like you to cut a few either with a jig or without.
Robin, Molly & Sadie (the Wonder Labs) "We tried to chew some dovetails for mom once but they didn't fit together so good!"
Well Sarge I agree with others, with the unclear photos it's a tough call. Looks like the spacing is not exact, that rules out a lot of simple jigs, but some othersit's up to your spacing and size. Since you said you only got a sleve of black tape and a roll of duck tape, so either you fibbed to us about what you got or this was an early New Years gift. Well since this is a 50/50 and if I guess how you did it, do you plan on sending half the saw or the jig to all corect guesses. I pick Hand!
........ Marsh
Edited 12/29/2003 8:09:31 PM ET by koikid
Sarge,
I can't believe Sister Mary Ellen Sarge threw a pop quiz the first day back from Christmas vacation...sigh....
1. Those dovetails are machine cut...you ain't no fool...why would you bust your back on scrap wood to make good looking DT's like that. If the picture were clearer then the over-sawing (on the tails)of the Adria would be more apparent (I'm just making it up as I go along)
2. If they are not machine cut...take the jig back and trade it for a good camera....lol.
Beats me, but if they're that good, why would anyone hand cut them? I mean, I suppose that I could find a hand ripsaw and retire my tablesaw too, but what's the point? I want the finished product, not the process. Or am I just no fun at all? Nice shop, from what I can see, Sarge. If we don't touch base, have a Happy New Year!
Best,
John
Sarge,
Handcut. The tails are somewhat convex, which sometimes happens at first with cuts starting just in the waste side of your line and staying a bit too much in the waste until you reach the bottom of your cut. (Helped a little by one of those more expensive, thin, small-set dovetail saws...) Tip the tail piece in your vice so the cut lines are vertical and that should help a bit. Now that I've bit real good on the hand cut vote, the setting of the hook is really going to hurt if they're machined. If so, did it cost extra for a jig which decoys for hand cut so well?
Cheers,
Greg
p.s. Besides, it would fit in with your recent emphasis on more hand work, but that's cheating.
Sarge, I think maybe you are kind of missing the point here. The good loooking part is about being able to make narrow pins, on the order of 1/4" at their widest, and wide tails. Look at some drawers on fine furniture made around 1800 and you'll see what I mean. If you're just going to make big, fat, clunky dovetails, then your question is pointless - it just doesn't make any difference. You can make clean dovetails with either method.
Oh, yeah- you don't need a $130 saw to cut clean dovetails; my $30 saws cut better than an out-of-the-box L-N, according to the people who have tested them side by side. It's mostly how they are sharpened and set that counts. (And I'm not one of those who spends a lot of time on my tools!)
Michael R
I know this is probably pretty dumb to state but for the most part do not dovetails of this type lead an essentially concealed, "out of sight" life as an element of a CLOSED drawer? Yes I do realize they have other applications but why all the fuss over machine vs handcut -who cares?!? RACWOOD
PS I am planning on purchasing a Leigh jig next month. I have never used one nor have I ever cut a dovetail by hand. So I now enjoy full disclosure....
My guess is that it's cut with a handsaw but using some kind of guide like the one sold by Lee Valley.
I'm guessing that they are hand cut.
Not that they lack precision -- they're terriffic.
But from your many posts, I have you pegged as a guy that would much rather listen to a hand saw.
OK Sarge.. I'll bite....
hand cut.... with an oldie but goodie.....
<already learned it's nae the tool but the guts behind it that make the difference..
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
0k sarge now Im thinking they were done by some sort of machine if not a DT machine then on a bandsaw maybe....
Darkworksite4:
Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN
Sargemthis could be done either way?...But to me there too Perfect,seems Like a dowetail Machine made these...However,after saying that,Gee I don;t know..
If nothing sticks to Teflon,how does Teflon Stick to metal. Huh
beck
They were made to look like a dove-tail machine cut them. I cut them with a 1/6 pitch and pretty much spaced them evenly (if you could see close they aren't quite even as a few were able to pick up from the bad photos). If they hadn't been it would had been a dead give-away for old-timers and the question couldn't have been asked.
Just trying to generate a friendly enviroment that would draw out some fine points that don't appear in books. Hoping to draw out more lurkers, as I work with entry levels bi-weekly and they won't ask if they feel intimidated. As we move up the ladder, we sometimes lose sight of the folks behind us.
Have a good day...
sarge.jt Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Gotcha Buddy, I too can't see like I used to....Old age caught up with me too.
But I made a jig for box joints,to do 1/4" 3/8" and 1/2" works good...I agree with you this will get people chatting like you wanted...Had a chart here somewhere on how to make Perfect dovetails..just have to find it...If nothing sticks to Teflon,how does Teflon Stick to metal. Huh
When I first started WWorking (not that long ago, and i still suck at it). I told myself that I would not buy a jig until i could competently cut DT by hand. I still cant make them look good but I have saved about $400 by not buying a jig. I just never use them on anything that has to be pretty. I still hold to the belief that I can master these, and I will only buy a DT jig to speed me up, if it ever comes to that.
aj
If you get bored, just get some old scrap and practice. Don't worry about what the results will be and just go at it. I think it's kinda like a golf swing. Once you know the mechanics, you have to trust yourself to fluidly execute them without worrying about screwing up. If you focus your thoughts on a mistake it will soon follow. And if you do make one, don't treat it with the same intensity as you favorite "old dog" just up and dying.
Pretty soon, you'll be cutting them without a lot of intense thought and they'll look fine. Give it a shot, the worst you can do is kill a little time and waste a few scraps. And if that doesn't work, go ask Frank Klaus cause he does it in his sleep. BTW, that Sgain Dubh fella cuts some mean DT's too. If you can get him off the rugby field and out of those English pubs long enough to get him to tell you how. ha.. ha..
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 12/30/2003 10:45:41 PM ET by SARGE
yea i have a video of klaus slappin out a few... dang. I have made some boxes such as the box that holds my chisels but time is always a premium you know. anyways right now i think my biggest problem is with my tools, not the quality of them (because i actually think that matters little) but more about thier sharpness. my chisels have to take a beating just to cut anything and my saw is lacking too. once i get my sharpening down pat ill be able to improve them well enough. thanks for the wisdom... always much appreciated..
aj
Just a final though before I call it a night. You nailed a big trophy with the sharpening. Before you cut dove-tails or anything else, learn to sharpen and don't forget where you keep the stones. You need to learn to sharpen before you make the first cut. The finest joints I ever saw made (by Japanese carpenters) wre cut with sharp tools. They stopped every 20 pulls of the saw or so and honed. And the results show till this very day!
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge,
Just had to chime in on this one, finally. Your point about taking some time to learn it is dead on. I made a Chippendale desk about ten years ago out of some real Mahogany. Rather than ruin that beautiful wood as I learned to make half-blind dovetails for the drawers, I took some pine and practiced on that for about 4 hours. What I learned in cutting a dozen or so that afternoon was absolutely immeasureable! It is like a golf swing in that once you've repeated it a few times, it begins to become almost second nature. Even today, when doing a project with hand cut dovetails, I'll do a couple on some scrap just to refamiliarize my hands and eyes with the steps.
Things I've learned that make it easier to cut them and make them look good more quickly:
1. Layout with marking knives and not pencils. That tiny cut in the wood makes it much easier to line up your saw and chisel. And point out the layout line to your customers so they understand these are not done by machine. Customers (my lovely bride, too) have always loved this.
2. Fix the tail boards in the vise so that you are always cutting vertically. It's amazing to me that I can cut straight up and down, dead on my marks but miss them when I have to lean the saw slightly. (Proving that I am not a half bubble out of plumb!)
3. Cut tails first and mark from them for the pins.
4. Pare the pins to fit the tails, not the tails to fit the pins. It's easier. Trust me on this one.
5. Practice at least one on scrap before baptising good wood, every time. Even if you're cutting them everyday you need a practice run. Top athletes take practice swings in golf, warm up shots in basketball, batting practice in baseball, etc. There's a reason.
6. Keep your mind clear of impure thoughts. Kind of like, don't shave when you're angry. Don't ask how I learned this.
As a result of practice, most of mine go together with very little paring. Just my two cents. Great thread, Sarge.
Kell
Kell
And where were you when I had four new people reading all this. They will be instructed to read this post also as you have out-lined some nifty stuff. Our little club (well, not so little)class Sat. morning will be based on what has been presented here. Your out-line gets it pretty well organized.
Definitely agree with a practice run. Cutting DT's is kind of like cutting crown moulding on an old mitre box as I learned 30 years ago. It's simple, but if you don't do it every day for a living it requires a quick refresher to get you re-acquainted. To put it in not so Queen's English, "p-ss poor results are usually traced back to p-ss poor preparation". ha.. ha...
I will mention that your #4 can also be applied to mortice and tenon. With a M&T cut the mortice first. Cut the tenon last and slightly larger than the mortice. Then trim the tenon for exact fit. If the mortice was not exact, the tenon shoulder hides it and you still have a perfect mate as the tenon was cut to mate that particular mortice. On a through M & T the back side is exposed, so the same procedure applies but you have to take more care with the initial mortice size to mate the other exposed ones.
Thanks for your post and regards for New Year following...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge
I don't know about the dove tails, but I think you should put a 4 bolt main 351C in that Mustang you were talking about.
Scott T.
Scott
If I were writing the checks, I could consider that. This is a conspiracy between "Year One" and Hot Rod Magazine. I don't have a clue as how they made the decision. They want new kick-panels, they get new kick-panels. If they decide on dove-tailed quarter panels, they get dove-tailed quarter panels. ha..ha.. ha..ha..ha..
I like the original idea better as you..
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Definitely hand cut
The advantages of a good DT saw (like my LN) is the speed of cut and the thin kerf which allows a straight, well aligned cut.
I would only consider a jig if I often did projects with more than 4-6 drawers.
Best in the New Year, Sarge!
Bill
bill
Thanks for the well wishes. I do have a Keller Journeyman I use on throughs when I do donation projects for local shelter, missions, etc. What something projects in looks is not an important aspect on those peices. Just the end results being able to stand some abuse.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
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