Replies

1. 
   zolton | Aug 09, 2007 09:13pm | #1

   I would think Douglas fir would be a poor choice for a kitchen countertop. While there are rings of very hard wood in it, the soft parts are really too soft to stand up for long in this application. Any surface finish would dent and crack due to lack of solid support in the soft areas.

   Maple or beech is the traditional material used for kitchen countertops. Those hardwoods are uniformly dense and hard, and have very small pores. You'd be better off using one of these woods.

   Zolton

   * Some people say I have a problem because I drink hydraulic brake fluid. But I can stop any time I want.

2. 
   SteveSchoene | Aug 09, 2007 09:18pm | #2

   I'll second what Zolton has said.  Douglas Fir, even assuming you can find dry furniture grade stock (and it should be vertical grain to boot), would become distressed very quickly and wouldn't like be very cheap either. And any wood, including maple or beech, is difficult to use around sinks without discoloration or worse.   

1. 
   NWTIMBER | Aug 09, 2007 09:42pm | #3

   I have Quilted  big leaf maple countertops in my kitchen at home that are 10 years old now. we used a Sherman Williams kemvar conversion varnish and it has lasted beautifully. Even around the sink. I also have old growth Doug vg fir floors in my house that are 130 years old. It is my understanding that Douglas fir gets harder with age. Many people are afraid of soft tops but the conversion varnish makes my top very durable. It doesn't leave water stains and if you don't use it as a cutting board or a hot plate I think Douglas fir would be beautiful...with the right finish. My parents put walnut countertops in their home and used a minwax floor finish polyurethane that is very tough. It has only been a year but it came highly recommended from their painter.  Thanks, Sara

   Edited 8/9/2007 3:29 pm ET by nwtimber

   Edited 8/9/2007 3:29 pm ET by nwtimber

   
1. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Aug 09, 2007 09:47pm | #4

   sara,

   If you Edit your post, way down at the bottom there should be a button called Manage Attachments.  Click on that and you should then be able to delete any of them.

   Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres

    

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

2. 
   SVSander | Aug 10, 2007 02:25am | #5

   I can confirm what Sara mentioned about DF getting harder over time. I worked for several years for my father remodeling homes in the SF Bay Area. Old DF definitely gets harder over time.However, I also have to agree with Zolton that there is still a significant difference between the hardness of the growth rings (summer to winter). We worked on houses between about 5 years old and 100 years old. I can also confirm that the DF of 100 years ago was much higher quality with tighter growth rings than anything I have seen in the past 25 years.I'm afraid that even if you pay a premium price for the best quality, vertical-grain DF there will still be too much difference between the hard and soft wood in the growth rings and the ring spacing will be too large to work well as a kitchen countertop. Any significant dent in the counter is very likely to lead to a failure of the finish at that point. And once moisture gets under the finish you have a significant health issue that has to be dealt with.Again, I agree with Zolton that a wooden countertop will survive much better if the wood species is of a smooth, hard consistency. I would also go so far as to say that if a wood is used that contains significant surface pores (such as walnut or mahogany, for example) it will be important to make sure the pores are *completely* filled and leveled in the finishing process. You don't want tiny "pits" in the finish to collect moisture and contaminants that will then pose a health risk.Good luck,
   Richard Baker<edited to correct some spelling>

   Edited 8/9/2007 7:27 pm by SVSander

3. 
   wdrite | Aug 11, 2007 12:29am | #9

   Let's be practical.  Who do you think you are fooling?  Yourself. In time you will regret your choices.

1. 
   kenshep | Aug 11, 2007 06:06pm | #10

   Such is life.  If fear of regret held me back, my life would be pretty boring.  I would be interested to see examples of old growth vertical grain douglas fir that has been used for countertops.  If a smooth as glass rock hard surface is required then go with stone, quartz, stainless or corian.  If character and tactility are valued go with wood.  Millions of fiberglass coated wooden boats float the globe over, so a wooden counter top even near the sink shouldn't be a problem given today's chemistry.  A well finished wooden counter will certainly outlast the adult occupants of the home if care is taken in maintaining the finish.

     I made some small benches for my daughter out of some very figured DF.  Was it the best choice?  No.  Was it reasonably priced and beautiful after 4 coats of minwax tung oil?  Yes.  Will these work for her for seating and as small occasional tables for many years?  Yes.  Is DF prone to chipping? Yes.  Was the swirly grain hard to sand? Yes.  Was I born in Roseburg, OR and have an affinity for DF? Yes.  Will they last like a shaker made white oak bench? No.

   Given NWtimbers 'nom de web', shall we say, he is obviously surrounded by DF if he lives in the NW.  He or his family may have worked in the woods harvesting DF.  Since Oregon was described as Oregon Country (1848) and before, people have been using DF for tables, floors, counters, cabinets, cradles, etc...  If I was living there now and building a house I would be looking for old barns to salvage and resaw to install doug fir my home.  I would tend to leave it lighter in finish since the Oregon winters can be a little dismal from a natural light perspective.

   This Old House did their 25th anniversary show in Carlisle, MA.  They put in wooden countertops and even aged them with handplane tracks.  This was appropriate to their new construction to give it a farmhouse feel.  I don't know what NWtimber's motif is, but if he's making sawdust, I bet there's a country or farm style flavor to it.

   When I worked at a laminating plant in college we advertised to customers that by weight DF lam beams were stronger than steel for spanning purposes.  If it is hard enough for floors, I presume it will work as a countertop, certainly in my kitchen it would.  I don't cut stuff on my corian.

   If NWtimber can get free/cheap DF suitable to the task, (possibly recycled with an interesting story attached), and use sweat equity to test his premise, what's to rue?

   If it doesn't workout, he's got a great countertop for his shop.

   With some countertops priced at a hundred per sq ft how many free/cheap DF countertops could you put in over the next 50 years if they only lasted five years and still come out far ahead?

   Ken 

1. 
   oldusty | Aug 11, 2007 06:38pm | #11

     Amen brother !

            To All , I have seen Fir CVG and flat and in-between in restoring old homes after 100 - 125 years it can still retain it's structural integrity and looks .

    It wasn't too long ago ( it's been a while) the mills discarded anything under 96" .

        A lot of sheds , buildings and house like structures were built of discarded 2X4 brought home a few each shift . They stacked the 2X4 like Lincoln Logs .

       Any Pine with Blue streaks and such were burned chipped or given away.Until some of us started asking and buying it for dirt cheap and building rustic cabinets , then resawed ,T & G and diagonally wall coverings and such .

     Having Fir right here many of us have seen the virtues of this sometimes beastly resource.

           VG Fir , not hard , flat sawn a different beast in places .

              regards    dusty , sometimes maybe Rusty would have been better

4. 
   Meinthemorning | Nov 24, 2017 01:19pm | #15

   Your countertop 7 years later

   Okay, it has been 7 years since you finished your countertop with the conversion varnish...do you still love it??  Did it stand up to the wear and tear??  Would love to know your thoughts as we are planning on a wood countertop and not sure on how we want to finish it

3. 
   oldusty | Aug 10, 2007 09:17am | #6

   duff ,

             First of all vg fir while desirable is not as hard as flat sawn Fir . I have seen Fir countertops in portions of kitchens not always on the sink run . The varnish mentioned is a common finish for the wood tops . Cypress was used in years gone by I never saw an original real old hardwood countertop , like Maple or Beech , mostly they were made of some soft woods. I have seen the Fir stained and varnished and it looked rich .

                    dusty

            

4. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Aug 10, 2007 02:23pm | #7

   duffsaw,

   If you happen to have a copy of FWW #94, Jon Arno has an interesting article on Douglas Fir as a furniture wood.

   Regards,

   Bob @ Kidderville Acres

    

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

5. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Aug 10, 2007 04:42pm | #8

   Morning duffsaw...

   I will 3rd Sara that it gets harder with age. I recovered a number of beams from a civil war era warehouse here in Atlanta years ago that the fir is hard as brick. I have used it on two work-bench bases.

   But.. as with "heart pine" used in those days when wood was a-plenty, both are flat-sawn today for the most part and I am not sure if I would use it for a counter-top?

   I would have to give that some thought as you're doing. Perhaps in a rustic style kitchen where it would fit the theme of rustic? Even something that was not intended to be rustic will end up that way with exposure to teen-agers. :>)

   It seems Ms. Sara is content with hers that's a good note as women are well... not easy to please. ha.. ha.

   Regards...

   Sarge.. john thompson

   
   

   ---

   Edited 8/10/2007 9:43 am ET by SARGEgrinder47

6. 
   BobSmalser | Aug 11, 2007 09:00pm | #12

   Seems to be a lot of information on why not to, but little on how best to.  Doug Fir can do almost anything, usually at a fraction of the price of other woods.  It's simply a matter of how you use it.

   For a counter or bench top, highgrade common lumberyard stock into 100% heartwood, then mill into 1X2 flatsawn stock and face laminate using marine epoxy so the strips are vertical.  The exposed qsawn edge grain with all those glue lines is plenty hard for your purpose, will serve well, and will gain a lovely patina with age.  If your local #2 Common stock is full of knots, there's no problem because you can usually resaw so one 4/4 edge is clear, which is all you need.  And if it's even too knotty for highgrading to one clear edge, you can scarf together shorter clear pieces using a 6:1 scarf to achieve the length you need.

   The exposed edges here are Bigleaf Maple, which I also grow and mill, and for contrast there are a couple strips of reddish Pacific Madrone heartwood thrown in.  You can mix in any species you like providing it glues well with epoxy (White Oak and some tropicals don't) and has similar rates of seasonal movement as DF.  You can find that information in the shrinkage tables of your USDA wood handbook.

   Also remember that DF even in a face lamination ain't a stability champion, and the top wil have to be soft mounted using buttons if it is to remain flat as the seasonal humidity changes.

   I oil mine with boat soup....50-50 raw linseed-turps with a cup of pine tar per gallon applied hot from the double boiler, but finish is your choice.  I'd just insure it was easily renewable in any surface that lives a hard, wet life.

   
   

   
   

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   Edited 8/11/2007 2:27 pm by BobSmalser

7. 
   BobMc | Aug 14, 2007 06:37pm | #13

   We had a Doug Fir bathroom counter top for 25 years that looked great when it was pulled during a remodel.  The finish felt like a poly, and as I recall, the underside looked unfininshed. 

   Hoadley's "Understanding Wood" gives the compression of DF perpendicular to the grain as 870 psi, vs sugar maple  at 1,810 psi.  White Oak measures 1,070.  So, I guess DF dents more easily, but if you can keep women (and men) off the counter while they're wearing stiletto heels, it ought to be fine, especially with a good, tough, finish. 

   <Opinion deleted wherein I opine that not everything should be design to withstand all possible insults heaped on an object by careless and slovenly types who lack appreciation.> <Also deleted expression of amazement that 2500 year-old marble buildings still stand, but modern Americans think marble is too soft to use for counters, and they worry that if you leave a puddle of wine on it, the wine will stain the marble.  Oh dear, where is the Bounty when you need it? Oh, yeah Fletcher Christian took it away from Captain Bligh.><Now everyone knows why I deleted the foregoing.>

   Party on, it should look beautiful.

    

    

1. 
   duffsaw | Aug 14, 2007 11:32pm | #14

   hi there people,

    

   all the advice hsa certainly given me a lot to think about.

    

   thanks a lot

    

   good luck for now

    

   duffsaw