When I took up golf about 12 years ago, it took 2-3 years to learn that the law of diminishing returns also applies to clubs. A $50 set of Wal Mart clubs in the hands of Tiger Woods will always defeat the finest clubs in the hands of the average guy.
So now that I’m in the market for a table saw to start my backyard shop, I’m faced with the same dilemma. Wouldn’t a $50 benchtop table saw used by Norm Abrams always defeat the most top-shelf table saw in the hands of the average guy – in this case, me?
Bottom line: I have an empty 20′ x 30′ backhouse which is wired for 220 and 110. I have $500 to start. Do I spend it all on a table saw or buy a cheaper benchtop saw + jointer?
Replies
first of all, my experience with tools esp. tablesaws, circular saws and such, is that cheap underpowered saws are dangerous and inaccurate. the surest way to buy golf clubs or tools multiple times is to start with very cheap ones. $500 will not go very far and will not buy a cabinet base tablesaw. i have a rigid 3650 from a big box store and even that was $550, i believe. perhaps you might want to try and find a good value tabelsaw by buying used.
My advice, which isn't what I did by the way, is to buy the tools necessary for your first project and continue in that vein. Then you'll defeat the law of diminishing returns by only buying tools that you will use to create/build something. So focus on your project.
"So focus on your project."Good advice. Then before long you'll have some nice work done, and all the tools you need -- painlessly.Edited 3/9/2007 7:29 pm ET by ajoe
Edited 3/9/2007 7:30 pm ET by ajoe
Ship,
being a experienced woodworker and a scratch golfer I can tell you (from experience) that $50 clubs are far better than any $250 table saw,and if Tiger was playing in his own league with Wally World clubs he would get smoked! If you are serious about pursuing the hobby, and I think you are if you lasted 12 years at the most frustrating thing ever invented,then you need to know the 1st rule of tool buying.
#1- IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO ONLY CRY ONCE!
In other words,buy high enough quality that you will be happy with it for a long time!
Welcome To The Hobby,
TAZ
Sell your golf clubs to raise more money since $500 won't do for a decent new table saw. The idea of buying for a project has its merits, too, but you need more money either way.
HOWEVER, if you could find a Ryobi BT3000 or 3100, you might get in under $500. I used one for 10 years with very respectable service and results. It is not rugged. It is not powerful. But it is quite versatile. Mine still functioned 100% when I sold it. I also used a Delta benchtop jointer for those 10 years with no complaints but with the same caveats. Sold it in 100% functional condition also. IMHO, a jointer is about as necessary as a table saw. Apologies to hand tool folks.
BTW, Sears had the equal of a Ryobi BT3000/3100 on display with a ridiculously high price on it. Home Depot had them priced at half of Sears price, but I haven't seen one there for about a year.
Cadiddlehopper
Get a contractor's saw. The RIDGID TS3650 is a wonderful buy and you can get it at any Home Depot. I've had mine for 3 years and it has been wonderful.
TP
Please think long and hard before buying a jointer. There are controversies regarding both that and a planer. What is cool or appropriate for one shop is not necessarily so for another. Your monies might be better spent initially on woodworking books rather than a bunch of tools (as time goes on).
I suggest you determine as early as possible the type of woodwork you'll enjoy doing. In my opinion, the degree of precision and the size of the material you work with are most germane to your TS buying decision.
A large, hulking, cast iron tabletop is critical to me (>$500).
I purchased the 10" Ridgid Table saw from Home Depot about two years ago for around $500.00. Someday I will no doubt upgrade, but this saw has been a pleasure to own and has produced some beautiful reproduction furniture. I am very much just a weekend woodworker, but I would put the work that I have done on this saw up against any other. But- invest in some good training or books so that you how to use it safely.
Ship,
Bakesale and a couple others have it right. Concentrate on your project, and as they grow more complex, so will your tool buys. The other thing is be patient. Look for used tools, and look at them carefully. I heard a delta unisaw advertised the other day for $115. Don't ask, it's gone. I'm going to buy the lathe for $100. don't ask, I won't tell. The point is, watch estate sales, auctions, moving sales, etc.
As far as what to get, I'm still using a 9" Sears bench saw I bought new for $99.00 in 1972. I built it into a mobile base with a router mounted on the left, and a lot of table on the right. I can rip 50" to the right, and 25" to the left. I can't cut much more than 1 1/2" stock, but I get by fine. Just depends on what you want to build. Good luck.
Steve
There are two secrets to keeping one's wife happy.
1. Let her think she's having her own way.
2. Let her have her own way. President Lyndon Baines Johnson
<< Wouldn't a $50 benchtop table saw used by Norm Abrams always defeat the most top-shelf table saw in the hands of the average guy - in this case, me?>>
Quite simply, no.
Too much flex, poor fences and too little capacity in the cheap seats.
At minimum, buy a second-hand contractors saw and tune it up. You will always get your money back reselling when it's your skills catch up to it, and you'll be far less frustrated by it's limitations compared to a cheap bench saw.
Thanks for all the great feedback. I'm sure I'll have to ask for it again in the near future.
I have been working on building my first personal woodshop as well and have had more like $4000 to work with for tool purchases. I can tell you that most big tool vendors (not big box stores) take consigned tools in from people trading up (and schools going to sawstop saws etc) find a powermatic dealer or 2 in your area and go carefully look at used tools. I just bought a powermatic 8 inch parallelogram jointer for $1000 that was used for four months. Blades dont even need sharpening. I bought a Dewalt Planer (the 535 I believe (Current 13 incher) stand and accessories for $200 used there as well. Timberline tools is fortunatly located within 10 miles and I have not been in a rush.DrewP.S. I bet they could get you a lightly used unisaw for well under $500 from a school going to sawstop saws.
Thank god for tazzer! Tiger couldn't last till the turn before he would be cursing himself for even getting involved. I fill the same with this. Not you would'nt continue but you would be limited to the point of frustration. Buy the best you can and alittle more and you will be happy. Used isn't like buying a car, its good stuff most of the time.
Buying a subpar tool isn't going to help anyone except the person you bought it from. There's a minimum amount of accuracy and quality required to do decent work...the trick is to acquire that level for a reasonable cost. A good blade and proper alignment are the keys to good performance, but the saw needs to be capable of attinaing proper alignment. (set at least $50 aside for a good blade or two...research first!)
Buying used is often the best bet unless you stumble on a super deal for a new saw. A good used saw will retain roughly 100% of it's value (depending on the tool and cost), whereas most new tools retain some percentage of that cost....typically 40-75% depending on initial quality, age, condition, etc. So even if you decide wwing isn't for you, that used saw should return all of your initial investment. WWer's are constantly upgrading their tools...they're an excellent source of high quality, well maintained used tools....check the free classifieds on these forums.
It's more expensive to buy two saws over the next 2 years, one of which would be the saw you should have bought initially, than it is to buy the right saw now...skip the mistake from the start! The "right saw" varies with each person's circumstances and needs/wants. If you just want to do an occasional simple project once or twice a year, you can probably "make do" with less. If you're looking for a decent hobby saw, you'll want a full size cast iron saw with a good fence and a belt drive induction motor, whether it be a contractor saw, hybrid, or even a full cabinet saw. $500 should be you a very nice used saw, and will get you into the entry level of new contractor saws and hybrids.
Go out a handle of few saws in stores. Go to woodworking store and make a point of looking at some $1000 and $2000 saws along with the $500 saws just to compare. That way you'll know the difference, and you'll get a feel for what you like. Most of the full size saws have upgradeable components (wings, fence, miter gauge, motor, belts, etc). Some come with built in mobile bases, but all can accommodate a mobile base.
I love having a jointer. I wouldn't sacrifice buying a good TS to get one though. It's possible to buy a decent used saw and jointer for $500 if you're in the right place at the right time. I'd put my emphasis on the saw first, then consider putting any remaining funds towards a jointer slush fund.
Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress!
Scott
Ship,
This will be a bit different from all the other answers. For about $500 - $1000 --depending on whether you buy new or nice vintage -- you can set yourself up with the vast majority of the tools you'll need to do just about any project.
Here's a basic set of hand tools that you may find useful:
Hand planes:
Block Planes: a low angle (12.5°) adjustable-mouth block plane (probably the single most useful and versatile plane of them all); an adjustable-mouth standard angle (20°) block plane is also very handy and useful.
Bench Planes: a #4 or a #4-1/2 for a smoothing plane; a #5 for general purpose use or a #5-1/2 for general purpose and/or a large and heavy smoother; and either a #7 or a #8 for jointing edges and flattening the faces of boards; a #6 may be more useful for flattening faces and jointing, if you mostly do smaller-scale work like jewelry boxes, etc.
Other Planes: a scrub plane, if you're going to do your woodworking exclusively with hand tools, otherwise it's more or less optional -- get a "real" scrub plane here: it works much better than a converted bench/smoothing plane; a shoulder plane also comes in very handy; a router plane; other special-purpose planes – such as side rabbets, moulding planes, hollows & rounds, etc. -- can be added, as required.
General Comments on Hand Planes: My recommendation for vintage hand planes would be either old (pre-WWII) Stanleys or Millers Falls, Sargents, etc. (be prepared to do some fettling with the older tools) or new Lie-Nielsens (a bit on the expensive side); others will suggest the LV/Veritas planes or Clifton (moderate $$ to expensive). If you have really, really deep pockets, then you could go for an antique or modern infill plane or two. And, if you prefer -- or want to try -- wooden planes, ECE, Knight, and Clark & Williams -- to mention just a couple of the high-quality modern wooden plane makers -- make very nice ones, but they are not inexpensive. Old (antique) wooden planes and Japanese-style wooden planes are not my area of expertise, so I'll defer to someone else to advise you on them.
Chisels: a good set of bench chisels (you'll get lots of recommendations from others here; I like the Japanese chisels sold by Woodcraft and the Pfeil “Swiss-Made”, but there are many, many other good chisels out there), and a good mallet; there is also the option of vintage chisels; if you get Japanese chisels, also consider one of the Japanese chisel hammers. A couple of mortise chisels (¼”, 3/8”, and ½” are generally the most commonly used sizes) are also very useful. Specialized chisels -- such as skews, crank-necks, etc. -- can be added, as needed.
Saws: Take a look at the Japanese saws, as well as the western-style ones. A quality rip and cross-cut saw (one of each, to start); a good tenon and a good dovetail saw (LN makes really nice ones). A coping or fret saw and a bow saw can also be very handy, depending on the work you do. An Azibiki (Japanese mortise saw) is an incredibly useful little saw for a just few dollars. I use both Western and Japanese style saws.
Layout tools: a quality straight edge; a good 12” and a good 24” metal ruler (I like the center-finding ones); a good marking gauge (my favorite is the TiteMark); a marking knife; a bevel gauge; an accurate try square, and a high-quality combination square (you could go with one or the other at the beginning -- the combination square is more versatile; spend the money to get a quality – i.e., Starrett -- combination square; the cheaper ones are not worth the money or frustration…).
Boring tools: a good "egg-beater" hand drill (get an old Miller's Falls or old Stanley, etc); a good brace (again, get an old Miller's Falls or old Stanley, etc); a standard set of brad-point bits; either a handful of the auger bit sizes that you need for your work or perhaps a 32 ½ quarters set of Russell Jennings pattern auger bits for the brace. A set of gimlets and a hand counter-sink are also useful. You can get specialized bits, such as spoon bits or tapered reamers, if you have a need for them.
Misc tools: a sharpening system (oil, water, or diamond stones; or a sandpaper method); a couple of rasps and files (rasps: Nicholson #49 or #50, for example; the Aurious are very nice, but big $$$; files: a half-round, a round/rat tail, a 4-in hand, and a 6-to-10-inch-long flat smooth cut file should take care of most of your filing requirements; you can add specialised files, such as plane-maker’s floats, if the work you’re doing requires them); some hand screws and bar/pipe clamps big enough to fit your work (you'll never have enough clamps….); a flat and a round sole spoke shave (a concave and a convex spoke shave and/or chair devils, if you’re making [Windsor] chairs); a draw knife; a Brad or square awl; a card scraper (with holder, if desired) and burnisher (you can also use a smooth screwdriver shaft for this, instead of a dedicated burnisher); a good, solid work bench (buy or make yourself -- there are several virtues and disadvantages of either course of action); a bench hook, a shooting board, a mitre shooting board, and a mitre jack (you'll have to make these yourself ).
Books: A good reference library is indispensable; try these sites for woodworking books that you may find useful or interesting:
http://www.astragalpress.com/
http://www.blackburnbooks.com/
http://www.cambiumbooks.com/
http://www.woodworkerslibrary.com/
http://www.amazon.com
Here are some of my favorites:
Measure Once, Cut Twice (Jim Tolpin)
Essential Wood Carving Techniques (Dick Onians)
Grinling Gibbons and the Art of Carving (David Esterly)
Hand Tools (Aldren Watson)
Old Ways of Working Wood (Aldren Watson)
Dictionary of Woodworking Tools (R. A. Salaman)
The Handplane Book (Garrett Hack)
Furniture Making Techniques [Vol 1 & 2] (David Charlesworth)
Choosing and Using Hand Tools (Andy Rae)
Restoring, Tuning, and Using Classic Handtools (Mike Dunbar)
American Furniture of the 18th Century (Jeff Greene)
The Workbench Book (Scott Landis)
The Toolbox Book (Jim Tolpin)
Traditional Woodworking Handtools (Graham Blackburn)
Taunton's Best of/New Best of FWW & FWW On... _____ [your subject of interest -hand planes, hand tools, finishing, etc.]
The Complete Dovetail (Ian Kirby)
The Woodworker's Guide to Hand Tools (Peter Korn)
Classic Hand Tools (Garrett Hack)
Woodcarving: Tools, Materials, & Equipment [Vol 1 & 2] (Chris Pye)
Complete Illustrated Guide to Period Furniture Details (Lonnie Bird)
Instructional Videos: All of Rob Cosman’s woodworking DVDs are superb, as are all of David Charlesworth’s. I haven’t had a chance to watch Chris Schwartz’s DVDs yet, but they have gotten very positive reviews from those that have seen them. The LN web site also has some fairly specialised videos (like Tom Law’s DVD on sharpening hand saws) that you might find interesting and useful.
General Comments: While it's by no means an all-inclusive list, there's not a lot that you can't do with a tool set similar to that listed above, and it's not too terribly expensive to set yourself up with, especially if you buy good quality older tools off that (in)famous auction site (eBay), from some of the old tool dealers, or at the flea market and yard sales. And, hand tools (except for the bench) have the advantage of not taking up very much room, either in use or for storage, and are generally pretty quiet in use.
One last thing: buy the best quality tools you can afford, so you only have to buy them once...... (This also largely avoids having to “fight” the deficiencies of a poor-quality/cheap tool while you are trying to learn how to use it, and wondering whether the problem is your technique or the tool.)
Good luck, and have fun setting up your shop and with your woodworking!!
.
Tschüß!
James
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...."
-- A.C. Clarke
There use to be a saying (here I beleive...);
All table saws cost [something like] at least $800.00. Now you buy that $250.00 saw today, then a couple yeras down the road either wear it out or out grow it and buy another for $300.00 and so on and so on.
Ooorrr...
You can take that $500.00 today and buy yourself a nice saw and use it, possibly, for the rest of you life.
BTW...I too own the Ridgid saw. Best $550.00 I ever spent.
ChuckN and I have nothing of value to add to this discussion.
Check out all the various versions of tablesaws, from the $250 lightweights thru the cast iron monsters. Spend some time learning why one costs more than the other, when all of them do the same basic job. Pay no attention to the fences!
If you plan on ripping in any quantity or plan on making lots of bevel cuts, then a larger multi-belted machine like a PM66 or Unisaw machine will probably be the one. If you plan on doing "lighter" work, move down to the contractor grade saws.
Then, when you know what would fit your needs based on the work you wish to do, look for the best used machine you can find, and add a good aftermarket fence.
This process will require patience and knowledge and foregoes instant gratification.You will end up with a better machine for the money and probably one that will be adequate for your needs far into the future.
If buying "used" is a daunting task, please call on forum members for help. Some may be in your local area, and would be glad to show you how savvy they are!!
Get rid of the thought of "Putting together a shop". I think this is a surefire way to end up with poor quality tools that you'll lose interest in and never use... Start with a tool you plan to use. I started with the tablesaw, I used it to build some shop cabinets. By the time I was completed all the cabinets I had enough money for a jointer... which was pretty useless by itself until I got the planer. After that I pruchased a bandsaw and a drill press. While I was doing all that I was slowly buying hand tools.
As a golfer myself, I agree there is a point at which the cost outweighs the benefit in clubs. However there was a huge difference between a $50 set and a $500 set. The difference (at leats to me) was not so apparent between $500 and $1000.
This exists in woodworking as well. I think the beginer, and even the average will not really appreciate the difference in quality between a $1000 and $2000 saw. However in the sub $1000 range I the differences are huge. Obviously you can start at $100 benchtop saw, and end up in the low end range of cabinet saws. Extra money here is well spent. Rather then get a flimsy aluminium top, you'll get a full cast iron top. Rather than an underpowered motor, you can get up to a full 3 HP. Even in the $500 range you're looking at you can get a very good entry level saw that will last you many years.
So to answer you question: I'd get a good $500 saw, and forget the jointer for now. Why buy two low quality tools that will need to be replaced as you grow? As an amateur the important thing is that you get a tool that you enjoy using, if you don't you just will not use it and that's the biggest waste of money.
another thought occurred to me on this subject. you may not know what it's like to use a good tablesaw. that experience of using a good one will go a long way toward helping you decide where to put your money. some options for trying a good tablesaw might be: a woodcraft store woodworkers club, a woodcraft class or any woodworking class that has a classroom filled with good tools. perhaps a town or park and rec night/weekend class at a local high school. those are my thoughts and certainly people here on knots can offer a lot of direction if you state your location.
gmoney,
In my humble opinion a table saws primary job is to hold stuff untill you need to clean it off to use it..
It does only one thing well which is to rip wood..
OK Cut a Dado, but in a great sense that's just a shallow rip.
Everything else it does it totally dependant on the jig or whatever used to make a table saw doing something else..
It's not particularly good at cross cutting, especially long boards.. Which either a sliding compound mitre saw does better or a radial arm saw. The only way to make really straight cuts with a table saw is to use a really long fence, twice as long as the board being cut..
My most valuable piece of shop equipment has been the planner.. Everything I can do to lower the cost of the wood I buy is critical. buying rough sawn wood direct from the sawmill is the cheapest way to buy wood. if you need it planned and jointed you've dramatically added to the cost of purchasing wood.. IN fact every single person who touches that board adds to the cost of the board.
Once you've experianced the joy of really cheap wood you'll never go back to your old methods..
Just clicking on the last response. I think examining your intended projects is the best advice given so far.
If I had $500 as a limit, I would buy a bandsaw(<$400 for a decent 14" model), a crosscut handsaw (<$20 for a Disston in good shape), a jack plane (<$20 for a vintage Stanley or a wooden jack in good shape), and a set of chisels (~$40 for a usable set like the blue chips). If you buy already surfaced wood, you can make just about anything with those tools. Then you can refine your kit as you go and find more funds.
You can rip and cut joinery with your bandsaw, you can joint edges and do other general planing with the jack, you can crosscut your lumber to width with the Disston, and you can cut other joinery (dadoes, rabbets) with your chisels.
None of these tools will be efficient for everything you do, but you can go a long way with these.
Things you will want soon after you have this stuff is a means of sharpening, boring tools, and then perhaps a router and some lumber prep equipment.
I don't own a tablesaw. My ripping gets done on my bandsaw and that is 95% of its use. I crosscut by hand, I do all my joinery by hand. I have a powered planer, but I have to face joint (to a flat, but not finished surface) by hand. Of course, I try to buy surfaced lumber when I can.
Just my $0.02.
-Jamey
Jamie,
Since the major thing that retrains us from doing a lot more wood working is the price we pay for wood I put getting wood cheap as my highest priority. In a pinch you can take pallets made of harwood and with nothing more than a planner turn that wood into some remarkable pieces. Domestic pallets are almost always hardwood. GMA pallets are in fact required to be hardwood.. Pallets from products shipped into America are often some remarkable woods. I've seen mahogany and pauduck plus purple heart and other woods. I interupted thousands of board feet of Black walnut on it's way to the pallet mills because the sawmill simply couldn't find a buyer for black walnut at the time. This was in the late 90's and I paid only 17 cents per bd.ft. for it.
You have to be a hoarder and a bit of an opertunist to maximise your inventory but if you fail to obtain cheap enough wood you can always buy direct from the sawmills that sell primarily to pallet mills and railroad ties..
So to me getting a planner is the highest priority, after that I agree a band saw is mch more important than a table saw..
Today with a shop full of equipment my tables saw is most used as a storage bench..
I would keep your eye out on ebay and craigslist and other classified sources for used equipment. It may take a little while, I had been looking for about a month before buying a used Grizzly contractors saw for $400. I had missed a unisaw for $600 about two weeks into the search. Keep it in good shape and if you do "outgrow" it you can always sell it later to ease the cost of the upgrade.
ship1969
In My humble opinon the table saw is the least important but most desired tool in the shop..
I can easily do much of the work with a circular saw and a jointer. A decent circular saw won't damage much of $200 you'll be able to find lots of things to act as a striaght edge.
With a jointer you can straighten out imperfections in your cut, flatten stock properly. Use it like a planner to smooth wood . Heck with a circular saw and a jointer a talented person could darn near do anything his ambition wants to..
The next tool you spend money on would be a band saw..
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