Replies

1. 
   forestgirl | Dec 29, 2003 12:29am | #1

   You need to loosen the trunnion bolts and tap the back trunnion in the right direction to bring the blade parallel to the miter slots.  Be carefu! to not loosen them too much!  There is an assembly underneath that consists of two steel bars parallel to each other.  If they come out of parallel, you'll be a very, very sad puppy (don't ask how I know this).

   There is probably an on-line article somewhere on doing this.  You'll need a 2x4, hammer and some patience.

   forestgirl Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)  you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)

1. 
   foghorn | Dec 29, 2003 10:45pm | #3

   For various and sundry reasons, I have my Delta Contractor's saw completely apart at the moment. Will be putting it back together over the next couple of days and the issue of aligning the blade to the mitre slot just might come up.

   Earlier this tear, I had purchased an Align-it  gimmick that was supposed to enable you to move the rear trunnion so as to level the table . Never could get it to move the table.

   Reading your post has given me an idea why. You say to loosen BOTH trunnions (front and back) and then tap the rear trunnion with the but end of a 2x4 (or at least that is what I understand you to say). Am I correct?

   It does make sense as I look at the guts of the saw with it turned up side down. If I wanted the table to move in reference to the "guts" assembly (trunnions, those 2 long bars and the arbor assembly) it seems like BOTH trunnions would have to be loose.

   If this is true, then this gimmick attached to the rear trunnion would never move that trunnion unless the rear one was loose as well.

   I have an instintive sense here that I am adding 2 and 2 and getting 5.

   I think I have worded this poorly. Perhaps in the interests of your time and sanity perhaps you could point me towards Delta's 800 number.

   Sorry for the inconvenience.

1. 
   JohnWW | Dec 30, 2003 12:58am | #4

   Mike,

   You are correct that, in an ideal world, both of the trunnions would be loosened and the entire trunnion and arbor assembly would be moved as a unit.  However, short of completely tearing apart the saw, it is just about impossible to get at the bolts that hold the front trunnion in place. 

   For small adjustments, just loosening the rear trunnion and shifting it does work well and I have done it often.  Because the arbor assembly just rides in a slot in the front trunnion, the rear assembly can be shifted with the front trunnion bolts tight, the slot allows for a lot of free play.  I suspect that your rear trunnion didn't move because the mounting bolts were up against the sides of the holes in the trunnion, there just wasn't any more room to move to the side.

   As long as you have the saw apart you should try to line up the arbor with the table slots as close as possible but, in the end, once the saw is back upright and the motor is hung off the back, the adjustment will probably have to be fine tuned, from the back only, to compensate for the twisting created by the weight of the motor. 

   The problem of aligning the trunnions of a contractor's saw has always been one of the machine's two or three worst design flaws, it wouldn't take all that much to improve the design but no manufacturer has done so in the fifty plus years that the saw has been around.

   John W.  

   Edited 12/30/2003 3:10:45 PM ET by JohnW

1. 
   foghorn | Dec 30, 2003 01:30am | #5

   John W:

   Thanks so much for the rersponse. I just got in from my shop/garage and so have a much clearer idea of what I was trying to say. At the heart of my problem was the fact that I was using (as well as envisioning) the labels "front" and "back" in exact opposite to the reality.

   The Align-it thingamagig goes on the back trunnion and as you say, it is virtually impossible to get at the front trunnion without taking it all apart. As it happens, my saw is a bit out of alignment so while I have it in its current condition I will play with it a bit. It's all a learning curve for me. It's good to know that even with the front trunnion fixed in place, there should be enough give in the rear one to get it back in line.

   Thanks again.

2. 
   FCB | Dec 30, 2003 08:47pm | #8

   I guess my post started the discussion. Thanks to everyone for their help. In looking at my saw, I question whether I need to loosen (slightly) the two trunion bolts and try to nudge them both or would it be better to loosen the bracket that holds the two trunions inplace and try to move that.

1. 
   JohnWW | Dec 30, 2003 11:02pm | #12

   Before you get into trouble here, I think I need to clearly name and explain the functions of the parts of saw.

   The trunnions are the two half round castings at either end of the carriage assembly that allow the carriage to rotate and change the angle of the blade to the table top.  The rear trunnion is clearly visible just under the back edge of the table top, the front trunnion is just behind the sheet metal on the operator's side of the saw.  Each trunnion is attached to the table's underside by two bolts, there are no "brackets" involved.

   The carriage assembly consists of two larger castings, one in the front and one in the rear of the saw, joined into a single rigid unit by the two long round bars that are clearly visible from the back of the saw.  The nuts holding the carriage castings to the bars are never loosened or adjusted in an ordinary tune up.  Attached to the front casting of the carriage assembly is a swinging arm that supports the arbor and blade.  The motion of the arm changes the blade height.  

   The two carriage castings have curved tongues that slide in curved grooves in the trunnion castings.  Ideally the tongues and grooves are fully engaged to prevent excess wear and to minimize unwanted movement of the carriage assembly. 

   The saw's blade needs to be parallel to the miter slots in the table for the saw to work properly.  By loosening the the bolts that hold the trunnions to the underside of the table, the carriage assembly and the trunnions can be shifted as a unit to bring the blade into line with the miter slots. 

   Because the bolts that hold the front trunnion in place are very hard to reach, most people only loosen and move the rear trunnion although this is less than ideal.  By only moving the rear trunnion, the tongue and groove on the front trunnion is pulled apart slightly, but it is possible to cause the tongue and groove to separate entirely, which will cause the entire carriage to drop out from under the saw.  This possibility is why there are the warnings to just slightly loosen the trunnion bolts and to only make small adjustments. 

   The range of movement of the rear trunnion is limited by the amount of space between the sides of the two oversize holes in the trunnion casting and the sides of the mounting bolts that go through the holes.  If the blade can't be lined up to the miter slots by shifting the rear trunnion all the way to its limit, then the front trunnion will also have to be loosened and shifted over.  Note that although the bolts that hold the trunnions are what is loosened, the bolts don't move side to side, the trunnion itself is the part that is moved to line up the saw.

   John W.

2. 
   FCB | Dec 30, 2003 11:34pm | #13

   thanks, you saved me a lot of time and I appreciate the explanation.

   Frank

2. 
   foghorn | Dec 30, 2003 01:33am | #6

   FC

   I was able to find my Delta T/S manual and have the number I need.

   Also see previous post.

   As always, many thanks

3. 
   forestgirl | Dec 30, 2003 08:18pm | #7

   Mike, I think John answered your questions while I was gone yesterday (thanks, John), but I'm feeling confusion in your post, so want to clarify.

   "...Align-it  gimmick that was supposed to enable you to move the rear trunnion so as to level the table . Never could get it to move the table."  The table doesn't move on a contractor saw.  The "gimmick" is designed to more easily move the rear trunnion to bring the blade in alignment with the miter slots.

   In most cases, as John states, just loosening the rear trunnion will do it.  I have, however, seen instructions from knowledgeable folk who will use an extension to slightly loosen the front trunnion also. 

   Not being so rushed today, I'll elaborate on the parallel bars thing.  I don't know why it is, but those buggers are really hard to get lined up right once they're screwed up.  My saw had evidently been dropped prior to my getting it (used, from a frame shop), and the blade was way-the-heck out of alignment.  I ended up taking the whole cradle out of the saw trying to fix it.  Now, I'm pretty darned mechanical with things like that, but never could come close to getting it right.

   If those bars aren't adjust properly, the blade won't get parallel through it's entire range of 0 degrees to 45 degrees tilt.  Also, in the case of someone adjust the trunnion while everything's still on the saw as usual, if the trunnion is loosened too much and the bars get out of parallel, the arbor assembly can actually drop out of the ways when the blade is tilted (you can imagine how I know this).

   I'm looking forward to a post from you indicating everything went together just fine and you have a precisely adjusted saw hummmmmmmin along -- it will make me feel better about contractor saws in general that a mere human being can get them back together right!!!

   "The rest of the story" -- my whole situation turned out great when I paid a Jet-recommended tech to fix the saw, and he sold me a pair of cast iron wings for $40.  What a deal!!forestgirl Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)  you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)

1. 
   foghorn | Dec 30, 2003 09:12pm | #9

   I'm feeling a little stupid right about now. Also that I have opened up a can of worms that shouldn't be taking up your time. Be that as it may, here is the situation.

   My contractor's saw is currently apart in that the cast iron side extension on the left and the large laminated extension on the right are not attached to the main section of the saw (the cast iron "table" -for want of a better word description - under which lays the trunnions,bars,arbor etc.

   Before I go further in the re-assembly process, my thought was to make sure that the miter gauge slots (and therefore the "table" of which they are a part) were level so that (it- the table) could then be measured to see that it was  90* to the saw blade. If it (the table) wasn't (and it isn't) I would adjust the blade by adjusting the rear trunnion which effects the arbor to which the blade is attached. The Align-it gimmick was supposed to enable one to move the rear trunnion without having to smack it with the but end of a 2x4. I never could get it to have any effect on the trunnion even after loosening the bolts. With the saw up on a workbench right in front of me, I should be able to see why that is so as others have gotten the gimmick to work perfectly and I am virtually certain I have it installed properly.

   The variance to 90* is quite small but since I have the saw ripped down this far I would like to get the Align-it gimmick to work. I will keep you informed (it might be in a day or could take a week depending on how my health runs) and will flag my response so will be sure to see it.

   As an aside, this poor old saw for reasons that I won't go into, spent most of the month of December under a tarp OUTDOORS. At the moment, rust on the cast iron tops is off the charts. I spent a couple of hours last evening using everything in the shop (including 60 grit sand paper)to get back to clean shiny meta. All to no avail. I am a fairly compulsive perfectionist and so have all the "Rust" articles from this site and elsewhere and had (up to now) kept the tops quite clean. I have 2 things in mind and wondered if you had any thoughts/experience with 1) naval jelly or 2) muriatic acid?

   The tops right now are flat and smooth just very badly stained. That annoys the hell out of my anal retentive self but the saner side of me says that in terms of making sawdust doing the things I can now do or am liable to be able to do in the foreseeable future the stains don't really make a difference. Any comments by all (except the rude ones) will be appreciatively accepted.

1. 
   JohnWW | Dec 30, 2003 09:51pm | #10

   Mike,

   Your questions were posted to Forest Girl but I thought my input would be helpful.

   Cast iron is relatively porous.  If you are looking at dark colored areas that are still visible after all of the rust is removed, they're probably stains that extend deep into the metal and I don't know of any way to remove them. 

   Do not use muriatic acid for any purpose anywhere in your shop, every piece of steel or iron touched by the fumes, which can reach every corner of the shop, will quickly rust.  Naval Jelly might work on the stains but I doubt it.  Be careful handling it, it also contains potent acids.

   Your questions about aligning the saw are hard to follow.   I think you are possibly confusing "level" with flatness and/or parallel and you would seem to think that the trunnions are adjusted to get the blade set at a 90 degree angle to the table top.  The trunnions are adjusted to get the blade parallel to the miter slots, squaring the blade to the table top is adjusted by a stop bolt unrelated to the trunnions. 

   John W.

   Edited 12/30/2003 3:17:44 PM ET by JohnW

   Edited 12/30/2003 3:21:23 PM ET by JohnW

2. 
   foghorn | Dec 30, 2003 11:50pm | #14

   To John W and Forrest Girl

   I did indeed have the function of the trunnions completely wrong. I am going to print out your response(s) and keep them in front of me while I continue my education.

   John, many thanks re the Muriatic acid. As you say, the stains probably run deep and I will probably just have to learn to live with them. An occasion for the practice of proper humility.

   Again, many thanks.

   Mike

3. 
   forestgirl | Dec 31, 2003 10:37am | #15

   I'm sooooooo glad John piped in there an cautioned you against using muriatic acid!!  I would say the same for naval jelly.  IMO, not a good idea.  Just sand and steel wool as well as you can, wax the table, then cut a bunch of wood on it so the dark spots are covered up (insert:  grin).

   I have a solid steel router table top that was stained (not really rusted per se) when I got it.  I went so far as to use the random orbital sander with very small amounts of WD40 and 220 to 400 grit discs to clean it up.  Looked pretty darned good when I was done!forestgirl Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)  you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)

4. 
   foghorn | Dec 31, 2003 03:11pm | #16

   thanks again.

   Had not used either the jelly or the acid so no harm done.

   The miter slots are parrellel to the blade and the blade is perpendicular to the table so all is well. The table still isn't level but that is because the floor isn't level either. The variance isn't much so maybe a skim or 2 will surfice.

   Regards

5. 
   JohnWW | Dec 31, 2003 05:45pm | #17

   Mike,

   Maybe I'm not following you here but there usually isn't any great need to have the top of a saw table perfectly level as long as the the blade is squared up and the fence and miter slot are parallel to the blade.  Outfeed tables or roller stands need to be in the same plane of course, but they still don't need to be level.

   It pays to have all four legs bearing evenly on the floor both for stability and to avoid possibly twisting the table, but again it isn't important that the table be perfectly level, it just needs to be evenly supported and wobble free.

   John W.

6. 
   foghorn | Jan 01, 2004 12:46am | #19

   JOHN:

   What a great bit of news. Don't ask me where I got the idea but ever since I started woodworking and got the saw I have made myself nuts trying to get and keep the saw table level. Not easy on a floor that is slightly sloped in both directions.

   You have been more help than you know. Many thanks.

   Regards,

   Mike

7. 
   Robbie | Jan 02, 2004 09:01pm | #23

   As Boris Yeltsin said,  go and BUY THE PALS SYSTEM!!!!!!!!!!!

   You will fix your problem in a matter of no more than 15 minutes for a $20 investment.  If you try the manual's brute force method, you will waste HOURS and still not get it perfect.

   BUY PALS... 

8. 
   forestgirl | Dec 31, 2003 08:22pm | #18

   Mike, that's great!  One more thing to check, if you haven't already -- that's to tilt the blade to 45* and recheck the parallel-ality (?!).  A blade can be parallel at 90* and way off at 45*, leading to nasty accidents.forestgirl Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)  you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)

9. 
   foghorn | Jan 01, 2004 12:48am | #20

   FG

   Did that last night. Between you and John W, I and my table saw are in pretty good shape.

   I will complete the re-assembly and make the best of it where the rust marks are concerned.

   Many thanks.

   Regards,

   Mike

10. 
    forestgirl | Jan 01, 2004 09:55pm | #22

    Happy New Year, Mike.  You're off to a great start!forestgirl Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)  you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)

11. 
    foghorn | Jan 01, 2004 05:03am | #21

    Will do re the test for parrellel at 45*.

    Thanks again.

2. 
   larry309 | Dec 29, 2003 05:26am | #2

   Sir;

   The Lady is right you will need patience and lots of it.  I have a 12 year old contractors saw I just aligned the blade on two months ago.  Call Deltas 800 number and they will e-mail or fax you a copy of the instructions of how it is done.  It took me 45 min.  of loosening and tightening  the nuts to get the alignment right.  But, it does make a difference and the time spent is well worth it.  I also reset the stops per the instruction sheet from Delta.

   larry

3. 
   scooter1 | Dec 30, 2003 10:08pm | #11

   When I had your saw, I used a half inch socket and two different extensions, a short 1 inch extension for the back bolts and a 6 inch extension for the front ones. Losen the four bolts, but do not remove them. It helps to slack the motor pulley, and you might even want to remove the bracket.

   Once it is slack move the arbor around until the blade is parallel to the miter slots. I had a piece of plate aluminimnum made (you can buy it in some the WW catalogs) and used an adjustable square to set the arbor. You will have better luck with a dial caliber. There are some kits sold in the WW catalogs for this purpose. You want the back of the blade to tow out by about a 64th if you can achieve that kind of accuracy while wrestling with a 75 pound arbor and four loose screws. Good luck.

   Some of the WW catalogs sells PALS, "Precision Alignment System" which replaces the trunion bolts under your saw. One of the bolts is cocentric, and by inserting a hex key and twisting it, it moves the arbor in and out. The system is interesting. $2 worth of junky parts, sold for $20, and it is worth $200 in saved time. I would recommend getting two of them, because I liked the replacement bolts in the other holes.

   I hated the process, and given the fact I work my tools to death, the last few years of the Delta saw was not pleasant. The trunions were in constant need of adjustment, after every moving, and it was moved often, so I really got to hate the saw and the process. The PALS system and a dial caliber made in fairly painless, but the process still s u c u k e d . I traded down for Bosch for travel and traded up for a Unisaw.

   Good luck.

   Regards,

   Boris

   "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934