I am looking at both the Oneida and the Woodsucker. Looks like the Woodsucker is a few dollars cheaper when the filter is considered. Also, it may be the case that when Oneida increased its HP to 2 from 1.5, it states that its CFM is increased, but the size of the fan blade remained constant. Would an increase in horsepower increase the CFM with the same fan blade, assuming identical motor speed?
Are there any Woodsucker owners out there? I know the Oneida owners have said great things about the company, but am looking for feedback on its competitor.
I have a basement shop, ceiling height is a problem but I will deal with it, and have the usual assortment of stationary tools.
Thanks in advance for any help.
Replies
How much ceiling height do you need to put in a cyclone?
Michael
You should chekc out Bill Pentz's web site. He discusses both brands and many other aspects of DC with cyclones, including how to build your own. He favors the woodsucker. My memory is that he liked the impeller size and design better.
I have read that entire, lenghty, site, and it was how I first learned of Woodsucker. And, I have talked to both Larry of WS, and someone from Onieda. I was looking for an end user of the Woodsucker who could comment on his/her experience. Good, bad, etc.
As to ceiling height required, this is on both of the web sites, but can't recall just now. I know that I will have the motor in a joist bay.
I'm another satisfied Oneida owner. Ceiling height is something that you must consider though. If this photo shows up you can see that I cut a hole in the sheetrock on the ceiling and the flex hose going into the drum is about a foot shorter than what is recommended. My ceiling is exactly 7'. If you have open joists you'll fare a lot better than I did.
Would an increase in horsepower increase the CFM with the same fan blade, assuming identical motor speed?
In a word, no.
Be seeing you...
I have installed and have been using the Woodsucker for about a year. The unit has
functioned very well. My main runs are 6" PVC with a transition to 4" drops made up
of thin walled drain/waste pipe. The Woodsucker is a very stoutly built unit. A 2h.p.
Leesen motor came with the unit. The NEMA motor insulation rating is 'F'. This is a
motor that can withstand hours of run time without overheating. My runs are 30' and
35' providing dust collection to 9 machines/stations. Keep your piping joints sealed
from leaks and you will like the way this unit performs.
Thanks for the info. Glad you are liking yours. I know my bride will like mine. She is patient, but dust is tough!
The way I work now, with a machine that rolls around the shop and doesn't do any kind of a good job on the fine dust, it is on and off quite a bit. Will this be OK with the Leeson? I am a one man shop, and get maybe 20+ hours a week there. Wish it were 80.
Did you get your parts, such as blast gates, anywhere special? I don't know much about quality here. I'm not sure I have ever touched a blast gate. Larry recommended a place in cleveland with a web site for these types of parts. Wye's, etc. Do you have any thoughts here? I will have an overhead run about 25 feet going to the planer (20"), and another 15 beyond that, at a 45 deg. angle, for the jointer (12"). Do I need to have a cleanout on either of these runs, do you think? I know these distances are not desireable, but have no choice since I can't move the jointer without a forklift, which won't fit in my basement. The real problem is two large mid-ship chimneys, not movable. Leaves me with three rooms, one is used for other purposes.
Thanks for the help.
It was after doing quite a bit of research that I ordered a WoodSuckerII .
Thank you to Bill Pentz and a world of information on DC's at his web site, to Rick Peters (Controlling Dust in the Workshop) and Sandy Nagyszalanczy (Woodshop Dust Control) for putting forth such a wealth of information in a way that a mere "woodbutcher" can put to use. These resources along with talking to people at the different companies, and articles from FW and other similar publications gave me the "measure twice, cut once" confidence I wanted before making such a purchase.
To be brutally honest, it was probably the steel fan impeller that swayed me towards the WoodSucker over the Oneida. There was quite a BIG jump in $$$ as I recall from what Oneida called their "component" (home shop?) system ("composite" impeller;in a phone conversation with Oneida sales staff they did not deny that it was in fact plastic) as compared to what they called their "commercial" system (metal impeller; cast aluminum I think). Oh sure, call me old fashioned but I had to wonder why Oneida sells replacement composite impellers for something in the neighborhood of $140. Just a personal thing, with no real scientific basis.
My WoodSucker cost me $906 to my doorstep for the total system including the collection bin and its connecting hose.
I have to say, that on first look at my WoodSucker I'm quite impressed with the "beefy-ness" of the components; not some flimsy sheet metal thing here!
Like some folks, I too am "vertically challenged" in a basement workshop with a distance of 88" available to work with between the floor and the bottom of the floor joists, and roughly 96" going up between them to the subfloor above. Like Larry Adcock of WoodSucker said, "It'll fit, but it might be tight."
According to the installation instructions I should be fine (below the joists) with 3" to spare. If I feel that I have ample clearance around the motor, I am considering going between the joists.
Hopefully I'll be able to start setting it up this weekend.
I'll keep the group posted on how it goes.
WoodButcher
Edited 1/30/2003 10:00:45 AM ET by WoodButcher
WoodButcher -
Thanks for the info, and keep us posted. Good luck. The point about the fan blade composition I had not picked up on. Also, see my reply to djhawk. What did you do for the ducting pieces?
Also, I am thinking of trying to make a wire baskek sort of thing which would go into the dust collection bin, and inside of a disposable pastic bag threin, so that to empty the bin, I would just pull out the wire retainer, remove the bag and tie it, and intsert another. Are you trying to do anything like this?
It is about 6 weeks since you were installing your Woodsucker. Any chance of a report/update? I am still a buyer, but need to wait about a month to see if we are going to put in an outside entrance to the basement. For some reason my wife feels that I will be compelled to buy larger, heavier machinery if we do this. For my part, I have made no promises either way. Ask me no questions, I will tell you no lies, is my theory. Anyway, hope it is going well, and will look for an update. Thanks.
I'll chime in on the Oneida side - I've had mine for over 2.5 years now (the 1.5hp model) and can't say enough good things about it.
Overall mounting height, if you go with a 35 gal drum, will be about 7.5' - or, for your typical basement, high enough that you will be mounting the motor between a pair of joists (which is the setup I have).
In my particular system, I start with 6' of 6" main which then reduces to 5" (a,b), makes a 90, runs 3' makes another 90, runs 20', makes another 90, reduces to a 4", runs 3' and makes another 90 (c), 3' more (d) and then 4' more (e). In other words, I have a far less than ideal system given all the other crap running in my basement and my desire to keep the piping out of the way!
The letters above represent tool connections: a = tablesaw, b = 18" bandsaw, c = 12" planer, d = 6" jointer, e = floorsweep.
Despite the fact that they are at the end of a long run with way too many elbows, I find that I can run both the jointer and planer together (ok, I can run 1 while someone else uses the other) with little, if any, effect on performance. On my latest job, surfacing about 60 bf of pine, although I still had to sweep, it was about a dustpan full - not bad for being 35' or so away from the collector!
As for Oneida themselves, I have found them to be VERY helpful and responsive - they designed, at my direction, the above (although they warned me repeatedly that I should try to avoid elbows as much as possible) setup given all of the restrictions I provided (location of tool, collector, as well as existing pipes and joist structure), and even provided a full parts list to get it done.
As you can tell, I'm quite happy with the collector, and would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone.
Doug
S4S, Tom -
The motor speed rating is it's 'no load' speed. Put a load on it and it will turn at a lesser RPM. Put a higher HP motor on the same blades and the speed drop will be less. That additional speed will produce a higher CFM. Really need to see the load-speed curve of each motor to determine how much additional speed (i.e. - CFM) will be achieved.
It's not only the rated HP of the motor but the makeup of the motor also. How much iron is in it, turns of wire, size of wire, etc.
I've got a 50 year old motor on my planer that is rated at 1.5HP. But, it weighs at least twice as much as today's 1.5HP rated motors. That sucker don't bog down regardless of what I feed through it.
So, yes, a 2 hp motor on a DC will produce more CFM than a 1.5 HP on the same DC, all other things being equal. The question is - how much more?
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy
PlaneWood
For induction motors, the nameplate value is the loaded speed, ie 1.5 hp is shaft output power at 3450 rpm. No-load speed is typically very close to 3600 rpm (only enough slip to create enough magnetism in the rotor to keep the rotor moving, along with the cooling fan).
For example, a Baldor (everyone loves those Baldors) CL3515, 1.5 hp, 3600 rpm, C-face, TEFC motor is shown as running at 3475 rpm (measured, but nameplated at 3450 rpm) at 1.5 hp output. By contrast, a Baldor CL3515 rated 2.0 hp spins 3524 rpm at 75% load, which is 1.5 hp. That's a 1.4% increase in speed. The fan laws being what they are, output would be increased proportionately, more or less.
Comparing a 2 hp to a 7.5 hp (almost 4x) gives 3500 rpm (2.0 hp, 2.8% slip) and 3575 rpm (7.5 hp at 25% load, 0.7% slip), which is an increase of 2.1%.
So, yes, it does put out more, but not so you'd notice. That's why I just answered "no". High slip induction motors, like NEMA design "D", and universal motors, like vacuum cleaners, are another story.Be seeing you...
Could the difference be significant? I assume it would not be 25% in going from 1.5 to 2 hp. I think I know that both companies use very fine, American made motors. The WS is a Leeson, which I understand to be in the Baldor class. Not sure about Oneida, but believe it is the equivalent.
Flow rate probably was increased with the larger motor, but it would have to be because of design differences in the impeller or housing. They may have done something as simple as remove a restriction in the housing, or as elaborate as using a totally different style impeller. Call the manufacturer and ask them what is different between the two besides the motor.
Oneida shows Leeson as their motor supplier on their website, by the way. Go here, http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/comparisonchart.htm#specifications, and scroll down about half-way.Be seeing you...
Tom,
Can't thank you enough for the quick motor lesson. It is pretty much what I expected.
That is, absent other changes, the 2hp change makes only a very modest difference. That tells me, assuming that there are no other changes in design, that Oneida did a marketing thing, which I think I don't appreciate since, absent information beyond my knowledge, such as you provided, I would think the change was of greater signifigance than it really was.
If Oneida is watching this thread, then perhpas it could chime in on this issue. I consider the posts of Charle MC of Frued to be of mcuh value.
Edited 1/30/2003 1:36:08 PM ET by s4s
I may have left you with the wrong impression. I wasn't saying that there is no real difference between the two units as built, just that with the same impeller and housing, a bigger motor won't make any real difference. You could put a 100 hp motor on there and not move any more air, all other things being equal.
But Oneida's site shows a larger inlet, larger cyclone OD, and better performance curves of the 2 hp compared to the 1.5 hp model (most bag type DC vendor don't give you any curves), etc. Just using a larger inlet, which provides less restriction, could account for a real increase in flow and power requirements, though the impeller may be deeper and/or have different vane shapes too. Are you sure they are the same diameter impeller?; I couldn't find the impeller size on their web site.
I usually wear my Ralf Nader hat with built-in bull sh!t alarm when reading performance specs like the typical bag DC makers report, along with air compressors (6.5 hp on 120V; yeah, right), shop vacs, etc., but Oneida's site never set it off. Hopefully it's not defective.Be seeing you...
When I next speak with Oneida, I will ask the question directly, and post.
I just sent them an invitation to come here and explain to everyone, or explain by email. I have to admit, I'd like know myself. Sooner or later, I'll be looking to upgrade from my bag system.Be seeing you...
Hi all. First off, this is Jeff from Oneida Air Systems. I was copied in on some of your questions by Thomas K who asked that I might stop in and try to shed some light.
First question...the performance increase from our 1.5 to 2Hp. You guys have all the answers throughout this thread. If we had simply put a 2Hp motor on our 1.5Hp system we would not have increased airflow (not significantly as was described). We didn't do this. Our 2Hp component system, other than the fanwheel, is completely different. The cyclone is larger in diameter, has a larger inlet, larger vortex tube, neutral vane, fan scroll, outlet. The easiest way to describe it is that is has less resistance to airflow due to its bigger size. The curves are all posted & available.
There seems to be a big worry about the material the fan wheel is made of. I know we're all taught that we want the strongest, most heavy-duty equipment we can get. Grr...more power...make it bigger...make it stronger... Fact is that in these systems, essentially no matierial is going through the fan. Wear is a non-issue. We therefore select fanwheels which provide the best performance, efficiency and noise reduction. In these systems, that is a composite fan wheel. As a side note, these "plastic" wheels are actually stronger than some of our aluminum wheels. Metal can be brittle and shatter in the case of an upset. Steel wheels are generally a no-no as they can create sparks! Now normally this won't happen as the cyclone will pre-separate metal objects out but what happens when the wheel slips off the shaft? It can / does happen. That's really the only reason to worry about the fanwheel...the upset condition.
Second to performance, the biggest fanwheel criteria is usually noise. Our systems are some of the quietest on the market. Note I don't say they are quiet or silent...they do make noise...but comparatively they are much quieter than most competitors. Where are the noise level specs on the products you are comparing? Why aren't they posted?
Lastly (woodbutcher), we sell fanwheels separately because we do an enormous amount of retrofit business where we replace existing fan wheels in import collectors with better performing wheels. I have not had even 1 damaged / defective impeller from normal use in the new systems we sell.
All the small cyclones you are looking at can fit in basements, some will require the motor up between joists. Our 2Hp can fit in 7'-4" of height and we can sometimes get creative if we have to fit them in lower.
I have no doubt that either system would work in a small shop. What you need to work out is the comparison in aesthetics, noise level, ease of maintenance (filter cleaning), support from the company you buy from, availability of product etc. We're in our 10th year of doing this. We essentially started the small shop cyclone systems and we know what works. We've got a staff of people on hand to answer questions, help design ductwork, and ensure that your products are well made.
I'll be happy to answer any questions you all have, provide specs etc. Most anything you'd like to know is on our web site. We have been compiling a comparison of all the small shop cyclones out there on the market including our 2Hp and Woodsuckers. It has photos of both products where you can see the fit and finish, weld quality, what these fan wheels actually look like etc.
http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/comparisonchart.htm
Thanks...sorry for the length
-Jeff
Oneida Air Systems Inc. http://www.oneida-air.com
800-732-4065
Jeff,
Thanks for the reply. It's good to see that you made the effort to state your position here and clear up any confusion.
Lots of good info.
Michael
Jeff,
Thank you. I appreciate your time and the information and I didn't think I was even in the market.
Jim
Please accept my personal thank you for the detailed information. My research continues, and your post was quite helpful.
Jeff- Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate your taking the time to fill in some of the blanks regarding this equipment.
There are other vendors contributing to this forum from time to time. Two that come to mind right away are Charles MC of Freud (blades and cutters) and Stephen Gass of SawStop. I find this kind of input useful and often enlightening, and wish more would contribute (as long as they leave the marketing department at the door).
Thanks again.Be seeing you...
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled