All,
Safety is an interesting issue. To paraphrase an old saw “You can lead a woodworker to water, but you can’t make him think.”
Last night, I attended the local woodworking club meeting. At each meeting the Safety Guy gives a talk on a safety topic. This one was intriguing. His hand was bandaged. On SuperBowl Sunday, he was cutting wood to make “stickers” for stickering some lumber he paid someone to make from a tree that came down in his yard, so he could save some money on wood.
He was using a 12″ table saw with a sliding table, and a second “slitting blade” on it. His son was helping him, and he was trying to cut the stickers more quickly to keep up with his son who was putting them between the boards. He was also rushing because the game would be on shortly. And he was really tired.
Guess what happened. OK, you guessed.
So his solution was to show a Sales Video by the folks that make the GRRipper, a little yellow plastic thingy that you press down on as you pass it over the table saw blade (AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHH What at thought!) The movie shows the GRRRIPER guy using his table saw without a splitter or a blade guard, and showing how improperly-made and improperly-used push sticks will get you killed.
So our safety guy concluded that the solution to his problem was to use a GRRIPPER, and he passed one around the room.
I got a little excited because there were some younger, impressionable woodworkers in the crowd (50 to 60 years old). I said, “Given that these little stickers are not fine furniture, why weren’t you using your bandsaw to make them? It is much safer.” He seem stunned at the thought. It never occurred to him. There are times when a 12″ table saw with a sliding table and a slitting cutter are OVERKILL for a task. So I continued, and said something like, “I believe that the safety problem you described has nothing to do with the GRRRipper. It has to do with;
1) using the wrong tool
2) using the wrong tool improperly.
3) doing it while rushed and tired, and
4) ignoring innumerable warnings about operating a table saw while rushed and tired.
Darwin is alive and well.
Some Safety Officers just can’t be helped.
Safety is not a set of rules, it is a frame of mind.
Some people need to take up other hobbies.
Last year, Charles Niel talked to our woodworking group about making cabriolet legs. Someone told him that a cabriolet is a car, not a part of a piece of furniture. He also talked to us about using Bondo in repairing antiques and loose mortise and tenon joints.
But the most interesting part of his talk was about why he wears a glove. He told us that one day, years ago, he had been working for a day and a half without sleep, trying to rush to get a piece ready for a customer on time. He fell asleep at the table saw, and ……. YUP YOU GUESSED IT.
After listening to Charles Niel, one would have thought that nothing else could have been a more powerful lesson in not acting stupid while using your table saw.
I work in Woodcraft about ten hours a week. I cant tell you how many customers come in with missing digits, but it is far too many. I always ask “Table saw?” and the answer is always “Yes”.
The lesson about Table Saws and Safety is:
DARWIN LIVES!
Be safe. Put a photo of Darwin over your table saw.
Mel
PS – the safety speaker also gave added to his lesson. He said that if you cut off a digit or two when using your table saw, go through your dust collector to find the pieces to your fingers and hand, and put them in bag with ice and take them to the emergency ward with you, BUT DON”T LET THEM GET WET along the way.
I hope someone finds this helpful. Pass the word. DARWIN LIVES.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Replies
Mel,
Is it a case of unfit memes or unfit genes? We shouldnae be condemning the wrong replicators after all!
Now, as fellows with only two fingers still probably have their replicating digit, along with all the necessary biological gubbins, not to mention a suddenly increased sense of their own mortality which often leads to increased breeding urges, how are we to help along the "survival of the fittest" paradigm? Shurely we are not going to take them to the vet for a decisive snip down in that biological gubbins-area!!!!?
Perhaps the TS ought to be made to suit the known behavioural characteristics of humans, rather than humans be required to behave as perfect-safety beings? (We will have to splice their genes no-end; and also wash their brains of all thoughts except the robotic ones, if they are to achieve a Perfect Safety Consciousness At All Times).
Hang on though! Mr Sawstop has already done the good deed with respect to the TS. No need to be a robot after all. Now we just need a router that is designed along the same lines.......
Lataxe, all too human; but nanny has kept an eye on my fingers and other bits (phew).
Mel,
Darwin might be mildly amused that his original theory of natural selection has been turned into "marked for gene pool deletion due to actions of incontrovertible stupidity"; but only for a moment, as his lawyers would no doubt move quickly to protect naming rights and trademarks.
My dumbest shop accident only involves running my thumb on the knife edge of a freshly cut 45* miter, with the inevitable result of my rummaging for a band aid whilst cursing the wood gods. It was not the gods' fault, of course, they were watching New Yankee Workshop at the time, and were not available to protect me. (It was the pie safe episode, the one with the pierced tin panels...)
Cheers,
Seth
Mel,
A lot of people are afraid of tablesaws. And a lot of people are afraid of guns. They are both perfectly safe, until you forget how dangerous they are.
Are you aware of the four rules of gun safety?
1 Treat every gun as if it is loaded.
2 Never point a gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3 Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
4 Be sure of your target and what is behind it.
A similar attitude and set of rules is a real good idea for tablesaw safety.
Treat a saw as if it is plugged in.
Never push anything towards a sawblade you are not willing to cut off.
Etc.
Ray
To add to your point,Table saws don't cut off fingers, People cut off fingers. ;-)
Ralph,
Right, and saw control is cutting the stock to size every time.
Ray
Ralph,
"Table saws don't cut off fingers, People cut off fingers".
Shurely shome mishtake. I have heard of people biting off a digit but what appendage do they use to saw folk with? Perhaps you are thinking of Ray the pirate, who has not just a hook but also a special Wenzloff argument-winner? (It saws off their head thus preventing them spouting any more annoying nonsense).
Lataxe, who hasn't bothered putting a guard and riving knife on the neighbours - yet.
PS The Wenzloff argument-winner appendage is illegal in most States.
Ray:
I am definitely going to have to make the trip across this country to meet you one of these days. I mean wow, a guy who rides a motor cycle, and really cool old one at that, knows his way around guns and a table saw too! I'm telling you hubby better be very good or he just might find himself playing in the shop by himself one day.
I really like your analogy. I've never really thought about the similarities, but when I was growing up in Michgian my daddy made me take gun handling classes at the local hunt club and to this day I still stop and make sure I'm following every step and can hear my instructor's voice. Same with tools, I took some classes while at Kendall College of Art and Design and the shop foreman I think was so excited to have a girl in his class that I got a great deal of one to one instruction and the lesson was basically the same. I've been shooting since I was 9 or 10 and running a table saw for the past 25 years and still have all my parts because I follow those words.
Happy Friday,
Madison
Dear Maddy,
You're easily impressed. Many of us Virginians were raised around guns. And in all seriousness, those safety rules MUST be followed-- all the time, as there is no calling back a bullet.
The 'sicle is a chick magnet, there's no doubt. :)
But--Hubby needn't get worried just yet. I am not near as awesome in reality as I apparently am on the 'net. :(
Be safe,
Ray
Don't let the government read this thread. They will want to regulate woodworking more. When they regulate they do not help but instead they make it more difficult and more time consuming, they make it more expensive and last but not least they make people think that it's so safe they don't have to pay attention. We teach new employees that when you are on any power tool you are right there. Not looking around, not thinking about quitting time but right there. We also don't allow anyone to distract someone working with any power tool. You hang back till they shut it off. I realize that European saws are more safety conscience than our American counterparts but I have an American saw and I feel you MUST learn to use it properly. I understand safety and I think saw stop is great but it will not replace learning and working safely. Also by the way when you become complacent because your tablesaw will not cut you and you cut off a finger on the band saw can you sue saw-stop for not making a saw stop band saw? Hmmmmm. LOL Yes, woodworking is dangerous and no we don't need more regulation but we can minimalize the damage by thinking what problems will what I am doing cause. Cutting this really small piece on a TS, is it really safe etc. Use a hold down or maybe another tool. Happy woodworking
Us Canadians are not allowed to carry a handgun unless you are a officer of the law, or drive a big money delivery truck ie Brink,s
To legally move a handgun to a licensed gun club/shooting range, it must have a trigger lock inside a locking case which must be locked. store in your trunk of lock box ( Not in passenger area of vehicle ) and carry you transportation permits. which can take many months to obtain. and take the most direct route to and from you home to the gun club/shooting range. so legally you can't stop to pee and get a cup of coffee.
the only people packing hand guns are the criminals mostly gang types which are a growing concern in every large city. Vancouver had a shooting this week and it to tries to get the guy. and these gangs are moving to the smaller centers to requite new blood and if you ever go to jail it is Allie or die, not a good commentary but a reality that sort of breeds more criminals.That said it is their culture that decides how to act. The CBC did a show and found out how easy it was to buy an illegal handgun in Canada. Now get away from the urban settings. For the aboriginal trapper in the north the long gun is a tool, For the people who enjoy hunting the gun registry is so cumbersome and open to interpretation but in the long run the hassle of trying to be a legal hunter has kept a lot of people not hunting. So now the animal to vehicle accident is climbing rapidly. My wife has written off 1 car and hit 3 other deer in my truck. and saw a moose cross the highway the other day, we do not usually have moose were we live. If you hit one you lose! period. one must wonder of dying by a deer coming through your windshield is a more honorable death, than getting a kickbacked sliver in the femoral artery and bleeding out in the workshop?
To the farmer who has wild dogs and coyotes eating the calves and lambs it is matter of income protection and personal protection as the packs of wild dogs and now Farrell wild boar's, who have no fear of man at all.
To a fisherman, water borne pirates and big nasty things in the net.All long guns must be transported out of sight of the public. A friend of mine was going to get charged after someone broke into his car at a gas station, the thief was going for the car stereo but found the cover rifle and took it instead. total time of crime about 5 minutes. The RCMP said he must have seen it and took it. He said look at the dash board were a partially mutilated stereo was left. The cop hassled him till my friend demanded he call his supervisor and possibly a judge. The cop backed down. So as responsible as we try to be it is difficult because due to Canada's wimpy laws that always favor the no-good-nick. The some one must pay attitude, will then blame the victim.
This is especially true with the high school bullies that know the legal system better that the cops, teacher's, social workers et al. That would be about a 48 hour rant.Canada being a big place and from massive urban areas to the vast prairies and north, local additues and resuscitated culture. We also have a government that tries to cure every ill with massive legislation and a court system that chokes it's self.I do not fear getting shot, it is the person diving drunk, in a stolen car. With 4 prior convictions and no respect for themselves or others.
Legislation will not change common sense or good manners. It is the tool of the 4 year term politician and the lawyer willing to place blame on behalf of the stupid. All run by a bureaucracy of people just working for the pension (breathing at work is optional).My example of the "gun" was perhaps not the best analogy but the point I was trying to get across was responsible use of things that can and do harm you and sometimes no where near any help. Did I mention I used to work as a registered nurse in the OR for 6 years, one shooting client, unable to count knife wounds. Worked on a lot of people who were drunk while doing___________. Not to mention the orifices people put things in?I fear the day we may not to use sharp fishing hooks and must use dull chisels. What about the good old kitchen paring knife? Off to have a shower with out bringing in hair dryer, TV, computer,
Waiting for plans to make a bench to safely place ones backside on once spring arrives.
shoe and others,you're all a bunch of wimps. in the city of angels EVERYBODY carries, packs, totes, and owns a pistola. big freakin' deal. we call it detente.(sp.?) i just hung up with my sister in law. one of her employees shot himself in the hand while attempting suicide...eef
Gee, it's been a while since I checked in on this thread and I see that it's gone around some tight corners in the mean time. Have to say with regard to all the issues that have popped up, I'll stand by my original assertion that we're all involved in a bunch of things that can turn painful or deadly in short order, and the only way to stay alive and in tact is to be as well informed, competent, and attentive as you can be when so engaged. Being careless and taking unnecessary risks isn't good for your future -- as the bush pilots around here will tell you, there are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there aren't many old bold pilots.
WRT the guns thing, without getting into other important aspects of firearms ownership, I'll just say that some of the characters we run into around these parts, while not armed, are pretty dangerous -- they're capable of turning you into a pile of disconnected parts pretty quickly. Then there's the business of filling the freezer, which is kinda hard to do with a can of pepper spray. For many of us, the firearms are tools that are every bit as important as anything in the shop. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Ray I LOVED MY GUN.. Gave them away when I had children. No guns in the house since the first child.
I did that because I WAS THAT CHILD that could get that cabinet open!
I sure miss my old guns but sure I'd miss my children more.. NOT a Sermon! In any way.. I hope you understand. I did what I thought correct 'thinkin' as me as a young boy that LOVED Guns!'
Before I die I sure would love to shoot a full strap of .50 ammo at a target from my old tank retriver on single shot AND with a modern scope!! And maybe from my old Army BAR! All the clips they have on hand!
Edited 2/22/2009 4:36 am by WillGeorge
Will,
As ever, you are a perfect model human. I would be just like you if there were guns available in the UK. After all, the purpose of a weapon is use, so I would shoot things and feel powerful the while. The power would carry me away and I would find enemies to despatch. There would be inevitable "collateral damage". My character would be shot to bits along with my surroundings. Everything would end badly.
Happily the temptation has been removed by nanny. Also, I recognise your competing emotion of: how would I feel if a daughter shot herself with my toy? Those bang-bang toys are an invention of the divvil!
Bad boys still acquire guns in the dark corners of Blighty cities but seem to use them mostly on each other. Is this a Darwinian thang one wonders?
Lataxe, all too human
David,
You rail against guns, but look at the goo they have done.
This thread had gone quiet.
Then it rose back up again, and the topic is guns and beer.
See, some good has come from guns.Banning guns is just the beginning.
Once governments see they can ban guns,
THEN HAND TOOLS ARE NEXT.
Soon all of your Marcous will be impounded because of the damage they can do when used by a serial killer. REALIZE that it is not the serial killer's fault. If those darn Marcous weren't there for him to do the killing with, he probably would just have gone to the library and read some of the classics.:-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I know several serial killers (potential) and none of them are strong enough to lift a Marcou let alone use one in anger. No, they use other methods which can be bought at the supermarket for 99 pence, such as cheap tights or a smaal bottle of drain cleaner.
No, the trouble with guns is you can't employ them for anything but shooting things. Have you tried planing a plank with your six-shooter; or even shooting it flat? No, it will not work (I assure you). Of course, there will be some fellow Out West somewhere who does in fact sculpt wood into interesting shapes or even furniture with a Colt or even a large machine gun, thus proving me wrong about guns and woodworking being mutually exclusive.
As to the combination of guns and beer! Well, I know how I'd behave if I were fuelled by one and armed with t'other. They would definitely have to lock me up. I can't help being emotional, it's me hormones, still flowing after all these years. Perhaps it's the cycling that's stimulating them, via that leather saddle?
But I digress.
How would you choose to commit an evil deed on a-one of your many enemies? Have you an extensive collection of bang-bang machines or would you do away with the rascals using that King Arfur thang I seen you pointing at a log?
Lataxe, who is best kept away from weapons of all kinds.
David,
You ask
"How would you choose to commit an evil deed on a-one of your many enemies? "Being a very modern man, I would do the most cruel thing, and cut off the guy's prescription drugs.You signed
"Lataxe, who is best kept away from weapons of all kinds."David, YOU LIE. Your favorite weapons are WORDS, and you are a master of dastardly deeds with those terrible weapons. Maybe someday I should challenge you to a war of words. But on second thought, that would be terrible. It would result in many painful deaths. We would bore thousands to death.
:-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Soon all of your Marcous will be impounded ???
My Marco NEVER.. Standing up on the roof with my old M1 waitin' fer them that commin...
And I found somethin' fer ya... Art Nouveau Motifs CD-ROM and Book
http://store.doverpublications.com/0486995194.html
Edited 2/22/2009 12:09 pm by WillGeorge
Will,
Of course you must do what you think is the right thing. We are lucky that in this country we have the liberty to have guns or not. At the moment. When my children were small, I made sure to have all my guns unloaded, locked up, or out of reach of the little tykes. As they grew older, safety training, target practice and hunting taught them the realities of safe gun use.
Those who would depend on nanny to protect them from things that go bump in the night would do well to remember that, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Of course it is far more comfortable for folks to put their reliance on nanny, and think that the tool is the problem,than to actually think about the unthinkable, ie being the victim of an attack by a predatory fellow human, kumbayah.
I never have had the opportunity to shoot a .50 machine gun. But a .45 sure was fun!
Ray
As they grew older, safety training, target practice and hunting taught them the realities of safe gun use...
Yes.. I tried that but none of the children wanted to be seen with their crazy old father. One of their friends may see them with me...
Actually none were interested. Even the boy? My oldest daughter did take up archery though. Now them Arrows are nasty silent killers!
Ray,
Boogies under the bed; badguys swimmin' up on the beaches. Whooo, it must be dangerous over there!
But I can't help recalling that Buffalo Springfield ditty:
"Paranoia strikes deep; into your heart it will creep. There's a man with a gun over there......" (etc.).
Lataxe, not been badguyed yet as they are too busy doing each other elsewhere, in their personal Wild West.
. . . but since Lataxe brings it up --
"a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
If you work through that backwards you get something along the line of, "if we can infringe upon the rights of individuals to keep and bear arms, we can eliminate one of the necessary conditions for the maintenance of a free state." It isn't all about hunting and keeping the liquor store robbers at bay (though those things are also important). Ultimately, if a man can't defend his rights and freedoms, then he hasn't any -- only privledges granted by someone more powerful than himself. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Verne,
I have been reading some of your posts since you joined this knotty band of thieves. Where, might I ask, did you acquire your even-tempered view of the world? Most refreshing. You wouldn't originally be from Virginia, now, would you....? <gr>
Best!
-Jerry
No; Colorado, where things used to be pretty easy-going. But now I'm in the Last Frontier where . . . well, ever since Sarah made the news last year, you all know about Alaska. :>)
I did live in VA for a bit many years ago whilst doing time at Coast Guard Hqtrs.Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Verne,
I read that bit of the constitution and the operative phrases seem to be "well regulated Militia" and "security of a free State". Now, do you think the US is likely to be invaded by redcoats or similar that can be resisted by citizens with small arms? This is surely a "Red Dawn" hollywood fantasy, is it not?
Or perhaps you feel the day will come when the people wil need to rise agin a draconian goverment? I didn't notice anyone proposing revolution during the recent one, mind; which is just as well since a Colt 45 is surely inadequate agin a stealth bomber with a daisy bomb.
Is there a bit of the constitution that says citizens should have the right to bear arms so they can kill each other if threatened with a bad look from an ugly bloke in the bar or a possible burgler (who was really just a bloke walking his dog)? :-)
Perhaps it's time for an amendment, as C18th is gone and many things have changed, including woodworking of course (unless one is a museum actor).
Lataxe, who has somehow managed to survive despite being armed only with a bit of rhetoric.
Lataxe,
I can't help but jump in here, all the while knowing I will come to regret it;-)
At the time that 2d amendment was wrote, there was great fear of a standing army, and an all-powerful federal gov't, in our little Union of states. The writers had unpleasant memories of those red-coated fellers, gawping about on their street corners, imposing the King's will. And so every able bodied man in each state between the ages of around 16 to around 60 (it varied state to state) was in the militia. Things have changed, you are correct. States actually had rights, too, back then. But some things have not, else we'd very likely be pulling our forelocks and saying , "Yes melord, Guvn'r Lataxe," instead of being insolent and arguing wi' him.
A very good book on this topic, (not that you would actually be interested in aught but rabble-rousing) is Armed America, by Clayton E. Cramer.
Ray, an unrepentant rabble
Ray,
I think the boogies have been running our respective countries for a while. If you happen to be living (or rather existing) in a-one of them countries our armies are currently rampaging through, you will cetainly feel that there are very large and bad boogymen in both London and Washington.
Will them boogies ever turn on their own citizenry? Well, the boogies and their hench-boogies do already have many of us enslaved in the producer/consumer socio-economic rat trap, although many folk seem very happy there (including me, if I'm honest).
But of late, the boogmen have discoverd "the power of nightmares" whereby they keep us all in fear (and compliant) rather than full of hope for the good life (and compliant). This is a dark turn and citizens do need to remember that in the C20th various governments have murdered around 100 million of their own citizens (not counting deaths in war). "Can't happen here", say many. Let's hope not but I bet they said similar things in Germany before 1933 and in Rusia before 1917.
The cultural condition in which frightened citizenry abound is good for governing boogeymen who have aggresive foreign policies. They can call the foreigner "boogy" instead and the citizens cower, turn on indigenous folk of the supposed boogy sort and readily give up their freedoms to large policemen on the grounds that the large policemen need to harras us all to drive out the hidden boogies. Have you tried taking a photograph of a public building recently?
******
So, from that point of view, you could argue for armed citizenry. But, to be effective in resisting a governement boogy-yoke they need to a) recognise they are yoked; b) want to throw off the yoke and c) have the necessary type of arms to do so. I'm afraid your popgun won't do, especially if you daren't or won't use it 'cause you cannot spot the government boogies; or they've directed your fear elsewhere.
Personally I always felt "better red than dead" anyway; so I also feel "better a yoked producer/consumer than free to get shot by another citizen (or toshoot one myself)".
In fact, the best weapons in this modern world are words and the means to transmit them. Step forward Sir Tim Berners-Lee! Givimamedal!! (Oh, he's already got one).
Meanwhile the armed citizenry in the US seem to shoot each other, rather than boogies, on many occasions and for personal reasons such as "I don't like you" or "You did it with my wife". It looks dang dangerous from over here, any road up.
Lataxe, who could always bite and scratch if he had to.
Lataxe,
Oh, who was it wrote the Time Machine. One of your compatriots. HG Wells? Remember the Eloi and the Morlocks? La la lala. No worries here mate. Til dark falls anyways.
But, I concede. Your philosophy is ascendent. Our last election showed that there are more here wanting gov't to give them a sugar teat than to be allowed to fend for themselves. The natural progression from liberty to dependence on govt is but one step down the road to slavery. May our chains rest lightly upon us as yours do upon you.
Go ahead and bite and scratch when time comes (God forbid) that you must. I prefer something that barks here, but bites over yonder a ways.
Ray
Ray,
Sugar teat - Mmmmmmmm!
Lataxe, more Morlock than lotus eater.
PS Your right about that Maddy - she will have you in a pinafore afore ye know it, polishing the furniture (that you must also make) whilst she is out on your Injun doing wheelies and picking up rough blokes with bandanas, leather trews and a snake tattoo.
Lataxe:
You flirtin with me?
Madison
Maddy,
I can only offer a ride on my cycle crossbar, although I will be lycra-clad and applying the G-maximii quite vigorously, which may or may not make up for the throb of the Injun's reciprocator......?
Or....perhaps the Ypean TS in yellow and blue with sliding crosscut carriage will tempt you into my shed? It isn't a sawstop but it does speak German and looks nice in lederhosen.
Lataxe, quickly posting this afore the ladywife spots it.
Lataxe:
I'm nearly off my feet just dreaming about you in lycra. You see I'm a bit of a cycling queen myself and understand the value of aerodynamic clothing at it's ability to turn heads, oops I mean cut the wind...
Madison
Maddy,
Send pictures!
Lataxe, who has been lycra-clad in the lanes this very afternoon.
Lataxe, old top,
Back in my dad's day, when the mother, or even a wet nurse was not available for some reason, the squalling babe would be offered a lump of sugar wrapped up in a bit of cloth to suck on as a means of pacification; hence the term. My old man's response when someone's whinging got on his nerves (about 5 seconds after it began) was, "Well, what do you want me to do, fix you a sugar t!t?"
I pity the poor infantile sensibility which prefers satisfaction from empty sweetness freely offered, over substance which has to be earned...
Ray
Ray,
"I pity the poor infantile sensibility which prefers satisfaction from empty sweetness freely offered, over substance which has to be earned..."
I spy a Protestant work ethic! Next yu'll be lashin' at yersell with a scourge and writing all your guilty feelings down in a book that no one will ever read. Pleasure - it's a natchl thang.
Lataxe, a sweet tooth boy (nanny with her rosehip syrup and malt extract is to blame but wot a strappin' lad I am as a result).
Lataxe, I have not read all of the post in this thread, but I know that you will find this interesting. Here in the great state of Arkansas, there is a new law in the works. How does concealed guns in church sound to you? Here is a link to some news. LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (ABP) -- The Arkansas House of Representatives approved a bill Feb. 11 that would allow people with concealed-weapon permits to bring their guns to church.And a linkhttp://http://www.abpnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3849Itemid=53Or just google Arkansas, guns, church, to find more than you want to know. I don't think it takes much of a crystal ball to see where this is headed. Think Pogo.
Google knife attack in church. Would you rather be cowering under a pew hoping your loved ones don't get hacked up before the police arrive?
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
When some kid pops a balloon, or finds mom's pocket warmer, and the guns come out and start to blaze, do you throw your hands up and praise the lord, or crawl under the pew? Just say amen. ha
Yes, the news is just full of reports of balloons popping and the citizens with concealed carry permits whipping out their pistols and blazing away.
Not.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
You don't even need a concealed carry permit here on the last frontier unless you travel with a gun and want to enjoy reciprocity in certain other states, in which case you can obtain one. Of course in Alaska you don't need to carry a gun as a matter of course unless you're out of town, meaning either out in the woods or in the lower-48. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Don,
I nivver go to them church places. They often have unhappy, guilty folk in them listening to a droning-lad tryingto make them feel even more unhappy and guilty. No wonder one runs amok now and then!
Now then, do you yourself arm to the teeth or even just the armpits? I need to know so I can avoid too much arguin' in your direction. :-)
Lataxe, who only had toy guns as a child but was carried away enough with them.
Sir Lataxe;
The only armament I bring to an argument is a sharp tongue and one as adroit and quick of wit as you would not be in any danger from it!
I do live in a bad part of town and keep a loaded crossbow handy, it pays to call before visiting!
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Don,
Talking of bows, I still have an itch to make a longbow. In fact I persuaded a daughter to get me a couple of longbow books for me imminent birthday, on the grounds that I too will soon need one to fend off the pushy fellows who think they might extract a shiny tool or two from a gimmer's shed without penalty. (Well, I just want to shoot arrows really).
But a crossbow also sounds like a fine implement to make when one is bored of tables and cupboards. I wonder if there is a crossbow-making book?
Of course, them crossbows were inferior furin armaments used by sly Austro-Hungarians and the longbow is the only propah weapon for an Englishman. Still, variety is the spice of life and either might impress the local children, espcially if I impale one as a warning to the rest not to take the pish out of my lycra or make faces behind my back just because I'm getting slightly wrinkled (in a Charlton Heston kind of way, I hasten to add).
Lataxe, having Agincourt fantasies.
I have made a few Longbows. The worked for me and my Son but hardly what you would call something a 'real' 'Bower' would use.
I wanted to try to make a Crossbow but I found out they are Illegal where I live. Cook County Illinois. (At least from the information I found) Geee.....
Best I could find is that they are Legal for for use by disabled during archery season (With a Permit) and for Target shooting (Where?). I checked with my local Police department and all they could tell me if we see you with one we will arrest you and let the Judge decide!
How about the.. THE MANCHURIAN REPEATING CROSSBOWhttp://www.arco-iris.com/George/chu-ko-nu.htm
Edited 2/24/2009 6:18 pm by WillGeorge
Sir Lataxe;
I wrote a long scholarly well researched and insightful dissertation on English longbows and crossbows through the ages (well it was long). Tauntons web site or my isp decided it would be a good time to hiccup and it all disappeared into the ether. (No remarks on that being the appropriate place for it please.)
If I get to feeling ambitious I will type it into a text editor and paste it into a post. For now I will just say that it is an interesting area of study.
Have you any Yew to make a proper English longbow? Given that the average draw of such a bow was 800N, you may have to pedal that velocipede with your arms for a bit.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Don,
You have got me excited now! If you need one, let me be your excuse for reconstituting that document about longbows. In fact, were you to do so we might do cyber-collabertion on actually making one......?
Yew is easily obtained in Blighty; also other native timbers traditionally used by the bowmen of Olde England. There are also many archery clubs about the place so using one in safety is not a problem, nor learning how to do so.
I yam a big strong lad who once did power lifting as a hobby and was married to a female bodybuilder who trained like a fiend, so obtaining a few archery muscles will not be too difficult, even though I am now a gimmer and (according to daughters) heading for a perch in the gimmery and then for the mouldering sod.
Lataxe, would-be archer.
Don,
Your longbow paper should be put on Knots. I was wondering what we could do as an activity when we have the first annual woodworkers cookout in the Central East Coast region of the US. How about a long bow competition using bows that we have made?Yes. I can see it now. A Robin Hoodian adventure if there ever was one. Now we need a Maid Marion. Where is Madison and Forestgirl?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
You old dog! Ahh lycra and it's lovely properties. but don't forget the ones that should not wear it then it it EEEEH lycra. Longbow ? I missed something here?Long bow competition two events. Shooting arrows and catching them. This way we can make it in the Darwin Awards, and will me famous for ever.Me thinks another day of _24c and snow , is starting to go a wee bit squrrlley sic.
I have no real proof or global warming at this point of time.
I'll let all that go and get back to other fun stuff after one parting shot -- I doubt that I'd ever accomplish anything scrapping with you over the issue because I don't honestly believe that a man who has never enjoyed the freedom that we have in this country can comprehend its true meaning, the depth to which it invests ones spirit, or the reasons so many of us are so strident in its defence. Your countrymen didn't quite grasp the ramifications of denying it in 1776, and it isn't a trivial point today.
Enough said, at least on my part. Hope all is well in your part of the world. Happy woodworking and kind regards. :)
Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Edited 2/23/2009 11:32 pm by Thorvald
Verne,
A man who has never enjoyed freedom? Hmmm, the feedom concept is a slippery one as it means nothing without a context, particuarly "freedom from what" and "freedom to do what".
I get the impression that many Americans think that Britain, being something of a nanny state - National Health Service and so forth, means we are all abject slaves of some kind. I have to say I often feel extremely privileged to be as free from bad men as I am; and as free to be myself (and talk about what I like) as I am.
I've been to the US twice and loved the place as well as the many people I met. In fact, I greatly admire American society and traditions in the round. However.....
Whilst in the US I sometimes felt in fear of the many folk around who were armed to the teeth and (almost as a consequence, it seemed to me) quite belligerant with other citizens about a number of petty matters. I witnessed the normally mild-mannered friend I was staying with get very antsy with a group of teenagers 2 doors down who "gave him a look" as he drove past. I knew he was carrying three (three!) loaded weapons, including a handgun down his sock! They too were sporting arms of various types.
I was also alarmed at how American drivers seemed quite happy to drive at pedestrians. They were much more concerned about their freedom to drive unimpeded than my freedom to walk safely about a strange place. A helpless gesture of "why did you do that" in their direction often provoked a very unpleasant response, to which my first thought was "they must be armed".
In a few households I visited the initial friendly greeting was quickly stifled if certain topics came into the conversation. It really is wise to never broach religion or politics (or a whole host of other ideas) because this risks a sudden revelation of a very po-faced conformity to some cherished belief or other, which cannot be discussed without one being labelled as one with dangerous ideas and beyond the pale. Not exactly Joe McCarthy but you can still see the underlying attitudes.
Finally, wherever I went people warned me about not going here or there because I would be assaulted by "crmnls" who are apparently lurking around every corner ready to shoot me. I never did figure out if this had a germ of truth in it or if they were just frightened by the media and the gun-lobby to the point of rabid paranoia. In all events, I never saw lots of America that I would have very much liked to see (and we are not talking inner cities) becasue I was warned off by my host.
*****
Now, the above are a list of the "worse-face" bits of my visits. 95% of the time I was welcomed and was perfectly relaxed. But I couldn't live there. Too much freedom for me, perhaps? Or rather, not enough from the wild excessive freedoms of other folk.
In all events, I feel a lot more free (from violence & crime as well as to go, say and do what I want) here in Blighty than I ever felt in the US of A. I also feel that if I was allowed a concealed weapon whilst living in the US it would be almost a certainty that I would end up using it. I am an emotional and self-centred fellow you see. It would probably get me killed.
Lataxe
lataxe,
but...did you enjoy your visit to my home town? you describe so many aspects of where i live, so well, that it made me wonder.
eef
Edited 2/24/2009 11:30 am ET by Eef
Eef,
It weren't so far away from you that I visited - a short while in LA and rather longer in Nevada. I did spend a lot of time gawking like a tourist, with my mouth hanging open in wonder. The city was, how can I put this, like some kind of updated version of Through the Looking Glass. The desert was absolutely beautiful. I was there in February so missed the heat and also saw some fine wild weather.
One day I'd like to return. In fact, I could easily spend a year touring about America snowbird-fashion. But then there's all those other things I've got to cram into the second 60 years of my one and only life. :-)
Lataxe, old chum,
If you keep the covers pulled up tightly around your head, those boogies won't harm ya. Like Piglet, be proactive in avoiding jagulars, "I-I-I-I'm not looking up, P-P-P-Pooh!" And brush up on that Sharia law.
Ray
Ray:
Don't sell yourself short my friend, I mean really - guns, motorcycles and saw dust they're enough to sweep any girl off her feet! You are correct about those bullets too, can't take em back. I'd say the same for those spinning blades and errent fingers.
At the risk of starting a whole new round of debate on the virtues or lack-there-of for the SawStop Cabinet saw, I was in Denver on Saturday and finally got to see one of those in action and I must say I was impressed. Even without the blade stopping mechanism it's an impressive piece of machinery. Maybe with tools like this being available the public school systems across the country will begin to re-introduce the industrial arts programs and we'll once again have a system for teaching correct and safe operation of tools and equipment.
Have a great Monday!
Madison
Maddy,
Aw you are just trying to turn my head.
Noisy guns, greasy murdersicles, and tracking that dust all over the rugs? Next thing I know it'll be the sweeping is all done to the floors, and with a broom. And take the trash out while you're at it.
Momma warned me about girls like you, leading a feller on, like that.
Ray, born on a tuesday, but not last tuesday
ps with sawstops no one would need to teach saw safety, would they?
Ray,Saw safety would cover not stubbing your toe on the cabinet and walking into the fence rail.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Ray:
Round here we have house work dates on Fridays. Get the whole mess done in an hour or two and head out for dinner. Your momma would be proud! You're probably right about the shop safety issue too!
Is it really wrong to like the smell of gasoline and rubber?
Madison
Madison,Only if it starts to bother someone, either yourself or others. I used to like the smell of shellac and lacquer. Now I can't stand it.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris:
Shellac still does it for me to this day! I also love the aroma of the design markers I use in illustrating furniture concepts to clients. I'm sure there's some brain cell loss but for the time being I still have all ten fingers...
Madison
Madison,As long as you have enough brain cells left to ACCURATELY count your ten fingers.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Waht rae uoy taklign aobut? I gto all tne fnigers rgiht heer. See I cna sitll tpye!
All in moderation all in moderation.
Madison
Maddy, my dear you tempt me.Could you post pictures of your bandsaw, please?
Jammersix,I suggest you don't mess with Madison. She can be sweeter than sugar, but meaner than a combination of Alien and Predator. :-)MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
M,
O you temptress!
Get thee behind me...
Ray
You were flirting!
Oh Ray...
Madison
Maddy,
I thought you and I had something...special, writ in oil and gasoline. Then I read this:
"Lataxe:
I'm nearly off my feet just dreaming about you in lycra"
Hmmmph. No Injun ride for you. Just go off pedalin with that ole Lataxe feller.
Ray
Ray,
Now, I suggest a lycra motorcycle outfit. This will need to be underpinned by a great deal of grease as falling off at 90mph is likely to increase the gravel rash compared to that got at 25mph. Think of how good that will feel!
Perhaps the lycra outfit could be dyed so that it portrays a cut-off denim jacket with "Hell's Cherubim" writ on it, along with tights that look like greasy leather and have a painted fringe down the outside seams? The mirror Raybans will have to be replaced by Oakley mumbos though.
But all this faux leather and denim is like faux furniture - a fake soon found out. No, you will have to obtain a velocipede and pedal about vigorously on it until your glutes and quads are fit to be seen in the figure-huggers. It will only take you a few weeks to do the necessary 11,000 miles (don't omit the hills).
Don't forget also to get in plenty of nutritious grub, which I know is scarce in America, where everyone must eat burgers made from GM sawdust sandwiched in bread made from polystyrene and covered in snot-cheese recovered mechanically from cow's tripes.
Meanwhile I am thinking of a tandem, which Maddy will steer so I can be on the back. :-)
Lataxe, who believes the rider should have more muscle than the thing rid.
David,
Please let me take videotape when you walk into a biker bar with "Hell's Cherubim" written on your spandex. That scene could be stretched into an entire movie.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Lataxe,
Thank you for all that helpful advice. Now it is apparent how you get all the gals.
Alas, it all sounds like too much for me. I'll just be content with my lady, who must love me for my personality. It sure ain't for my looks, glutes, or money.
Ray, the mild one
Ray Ray Ray,
My funny man, you must know by now that a girl must keep her options open. What with the wind blowing through my long brown hair and the freedom of motor cycling releasing my spirit and all how am I supposed to stay focused?
An' when I said you knocked me off my feet with the smell of gasoline and rubber I really meant it, but honey you boys don't have an exclusive on the need for variety. Lataxe? Yeah he's cute in lycra and he looks fine on them skinny wheels but it's tough to ride two on a bicycle for very long so fear not my dear I will return when the fun is gone. Unless of course Chris shows up with some fresh shellac and some designer markers....
Oh so many men and so very little time
Love Madison
Maddy,
The story of my life.
Ray, forlornly draining the gas from the sicle, now that the weather is so suddenly cold
Gee's you guys
Do you need a bucket of cold water thrown on you.
Gee's you guysDo you need a bucket of cold water thrown on you.
OK, I need some! Can you warm up mine a bit?
What does water do to lycra?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
It is thought to temporarily reduce the effects of testosterone poisoning.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Chris,
Water increases the transparency of lycra and delineates the contents. Whilst a cold splash on to the lycra may or may not abate the testosterone in the lycra-clad fellow, the female cyclists will suffer an opposite hormonal effect, as their eyes greedily devour the [that's enough lycra-smut - Taunton clean-living squad].
Lataxe, who prefers to wear woolly tights if it's going to rain on him and his bicycle. Lanolin - Mmmmmmm!
Lataxe and Don,Best laugh I've had all week!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
maddy,
the very instant i retire and /or leave my post here at verdugo hills high school, the powers as they be, will turn this room into a computer oriented class. saw stop cannot save me.
eef
Eef:
Sad but true commentary I'm afraid. But I suppose in a few years they'll figure a way to just squirt fine furniture from a tube and you'll just bake it in the microwave and viola chippendale and Queen Anne quicker than we can say hello.
When we get to that point I'm heading into the mountains never to be seen again. Now and then they'll report seeing a wild woman armed with strange implements that leaves strange wooden creations in the spring snows.....
Madison
"But I suppose in a few years they'll figure a way to just squirt fine furniture from a tube and you'll just bake it in the microwave and viola chippendale and Queen Anne quicker than we can say hello."This gadget is a good start in that direction.http://tinyurl.com/ca5bg6
Donald:
What can I say except YIKES! Only $14,500 and it comes in 3 designer colors.
Jeremia Johnson look out there's going to be one more resident in the muscle shell come spring, and they'll be calling her the crazy woman!!!
Thanks Donald, and actually that is a pretty cool device! As long as all it will model in is ABS I think we're dafe for another year...
Madison
Hey J,
I like it!
R
When I visited the ER a couple of years ago after sticking myself with a LN chisel the doctor on call surprised me by saying that he sees more and more severe injuries from a bandsaw than from a tablesaw. I suppose that includes the BS used by butchers and metalworkers, but there's precious little round a BS blade to prevent you sticking your fingers in it if you're so inclined.
I always use GRRippers to handle small pieces on the TS because IMO they're a lot safer than futzing around with a push stick that gets caught in a plastic guard and propels a stick towards you. You can in fact leave a riving knife in place while using them. Your hand passes over the blade with a large chunk of plastic and rubber between you and the blade, and if you make a dumb mistake the blade cuts through the plastic without harming you. I suppose no gadget is idiot proof, but this particular one has been kinder to me than the LN chisel. I still use the bloodstained chisel, on the assumption that it was the fool not the tool. BTW not everyone owns a bandsaw.
Jim
I seem to remember an article on woodworking injuries many years ago that said the same - the bandsaw causes more injuries than any other woodworking tool. The article might even have been in FWW.
Bob
For what it's worth, I don't think it's important to engage in discussions about what's most dangerous in the shop. Jim tells us he had a pretty unfortunate incident with a sharp chisel, and we’ve probably all had to reach for the band-aid box a few times (one of my regular difficulties is slicing the heck out of my fingers on chisel edges without knowing it until I find spots of blood all over my work!) And although most of us haven’t had any serious injuries – I hope – most of us probably know one or more fellow woodworkers who’ve had one that was pretty bad. <!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
So, it’s a dangerous pursuit. But so are many others and many of us live through them and even enjoy them because we understand the dangers and act accordingly. I’ve engaged in a few other dangerous pursuits – sailing in heavy weather, CG ops in the Gulf of Alaska and the Bering Sea, hunting alone in the world’s thickest brown bear territory, flying in very small planes over some very remote country, twenty-four years of marriage and cooking in the same kitchen with a women of German descent – and I’m a coward. The one thing common to surviving all these things in tact is understanding the dangers and doing the right things to minimize them. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I think there are some pretty basic rules that apply to any dangerous activity. Trying to work wood, drive, shoot, reload, wander around in the wilderness, handle a boat, use a sharp tool, or get along with your wife/husband when you’re either too tired or
inebriut…enibreeat…unabry… inebriated is not a good idea. Doing any of those things without being adequately familiar with the machine or person involved is not a good idea. Doing any of those things without a plan for dealing with an emergency is not a good idea. <!----><!----><!----> <!---->
One last thing. Jim’s chisel mishap isn’t any less of a concern than a table saw accident involving the loss of fingers. I know a fellow who was sharpening a knife whilst sitting on the porch steps one day. Some a$&^%(%** came along and surprised him by spraying him with a hose. The fellow with the knife jerked and accidently stabbed himself in the inner thigh. It was only the nearness of EMTs that saved him. Point being that it’s possible to do yourself a pretty serious injury without a table saw if you’re not paying attention – or even if you are sometimes, hence the need for the emergency plan.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Now the good news. It is generally safe to respond to posts here even if you are tired, unfamiliar with your machine (computer), don’t have an emergency plan, or are into your second measure of Maker’s Mark or Bombay Sapphire.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Cheers! <!----><!---->Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
I wonder if that has anything to do with how the bandsaw is considered such a safe tool. Perhaps the users don't respect the bandsaw like they do the table saw or router.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
The vast majority of bandsaw accidents are caused by the operator placing his thumb behind the workpiece and pushing it, relentlessly, right through the blade.This leads me to 2 conclusions:
1. Far too often all of us work in the shop while daydreaming about other things. If you don't believe this applies to you, you are either a novice or unwilling to look impartially.
2. Make it a habit (rule of thumb maybe?) never to put your thumb across the line of cut, on any saw. (Even if you cling to the belief that point 1 doesn't apply to you).BTW, I've had 2 major accidents over 40 years of professional woodworking. One with a jointer and one with a biscuit slotter. Both due in large part to simply not paying attention. Darwin has been reshaping my left hand over the years...David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?lang=e&id=1
Hi Mel, It sounds like you are saying that the fellow had two blades on the same arbor with a spacer between them, so he could get two rippings for each pass. Is that correct?
I have not looked at that gripper in a long time, but I remember that when it came out, using it looked like it would be fine for those who are afraid of their TS, and not sure how to avoid the pitfalls of feeding but the thing that worried me, was that it was putting the user's hand right over the blade. If the wood is thick, the blade high, the work gets thrown out from under the grripper, which then gets caught and thrown out, then the user would be pushing their hand right into the blade.
If I ever write anything on this forum that I would like for all of you to remember, is this.
My rule is to never feed any tool in a manner that has the effort from my hands going into or over the cutter. By effort, I mean the force down to the table, and into the fence while feeding up to, and just past the blade, but never into the cutter, if the work gets caught and shot out from under my hands, not I nor anybody can react fast enough to stop and pull back fast enough.
If you scoff at that, as I have heard some old-timers say they have done it for years. I respond that it is just a mater of time. I have three friends who got away with it for 15 and 25 years, but then didn't. You have two hands, one for each side of the bladed, or just before and just behind cutting tools. Never feed right through while passing over the cutter.
Having said that. Some of the demo's like for the slitter show the operator intentionally making a kickback, may have instilled too much fear, without really turning around and showing how to balance the feed with proper hand placement and effort from each. I believe I remember one poster stating that he always stood to the right of the fence and kept his hands far over to the fence away from the blade, for example.
That person may not loose any fingers, or get hit with a flying board, but I wouldn't want to be his neighbor. I would be afraid to go out into my yard. Ha, I sure hope that person has a slitter.
If there is room for you to use your hands to feed the wood over a TS, and pass one hand between the fence and blade, that hand should be closer to the blade than the fence, with the line of force angled toward the back of the fence.
The danger in relying too heavily on certain safety devices like slitters, is that it may lull the user into developing bad practices. Later, when switching down to a smaller blade or dado set, or times where the slitter is removed, making those same mistakes, will get you hurt.
I shake my stupid head today, Dumb #####. I was nibbleing some trim and a small part got sucked up between the blade and guard, shoving the blade into the plastic part of the Dewalt miter saw. Making a real ear worm of a noise and shoving the plastic guard back and shooting various plastic bits around.Unplugged saw while making blue air, had to disassemble the parts and the guard is toast.
Found parts online, but still had to go cough a bunch of cash of a new saw, as we have 1 week to finish trimming out condo #2
All body parts intact except ego, and wallet.Lesson
don't use a 300 mag when a .22 would do.
I agree totally with your lesson in physics. If something slips, where is you hand (or the chisel) aimed? When feeding a tablesaw, I think of a constantly active rotatonal force toward the back of the fence, starting close to the front of the blade. I use the same technique with a pushstick (really much more than a stick with a notch, there should be a thread . . . ). Proper force is more important than having your torso completely out of the way.Brian
DARWIN LIVES!
But I'd bet he never used a Table Saw!
And then I THOUGHT a bit safer...
Turning Flowers on a Lathe. I LOVED this Video! What a great idea. Guess my kin never evolved to do Art. My brother and I could make some great firecrackers!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWWw5HHzvFw&feature=related
Edited 2/19/2009 7:01 pm by WillGeorge
If these tablesaws are so dangerous they should make them illegal like guns in Canada. Tablesaw's do cut fingers Only 1 nick, good groin shot from a piece of Birch 1/4, 1 1/4 , 18""
brusied from belly button down to knee ET AL/ 1 good router bite.
Have used a bandsaw for years shaping footwear etc, with blade exposed! you must be able to support the work and think of an "out " Plan if the blade starts to twist/bin, and learn to let your mistakes go... when grinding multi shaped footwear parts on a variety of drum radiues and grits you learn real quick where them fingers should be and if the part is going to grab drop it!! trying to fight a machine you always lose period.
Some times you wreck a blade or have to fix some accelerated gravity strikes, but still better than a trip to the ER.
I took the damaged miter saw and set up the new one this AM. Friend was willing to use it with out a guard. I said NO. minimal Comp costs. but if you got hurt the fine would be 100 times the price of a new saw.
Also DW saying as part of my funeral wake, is to bring up the fact, that he went with all his fingers intact.
Re safety, does anyone else find this latest offering from Lee Valley depressing?
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=62580&cat=51&ap=1
In order to use this thing the operator has to switch on power, then stand back 6 feet from the stop switch while he lifts an 8 x 4 sheet, slides it across to the fence and straightens it up while avoiding contact with the blade. Let's hope his bootlaces are tied. There's more of the sheet off to the side than on the table. What does he do if it binds? Who picks up the two pieces if there's kickback? Surely this gadget isn't any improvement on a couple of roller stands. I think I'll stick to cutting sheets on the floor with a CS.
Jim
Mel:
Right on!
Madison
Madison,
Always great to hear from you. Somehow I never worry about your and safety. I think you have it knocked. Glad the work continues.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:
I think the trick to safety is to never quite believe you've got it knocked!
I just dropped Ray a note and told him that I'd finally seen one of those SawStop Cabinet saws in action on Saturday and was impressed. Fine piece of equipment even without the blade stopping mechanism. I wonder how I can convince myself I can afford to spend the 4 grand to own one. And then if I do will it change the way I use the saw?
Hmmm...
Madison
Madison,
The SawStop. Is it worth it? Interesting question. I see a large number of people coming into Woodcraft, missing a digit. Is a digit worth $1500? With the doctor's bills, the pain, the difficulty of learning to not have the missing digit, etc, there is no doubt in my mind that if I were buying a table saw, it would be a SawStop. You bring up the other problem. If you had a SawStop would you operate less safely? Who knows what evil lurks in the minds of women (and men)?Stay safe.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:
My grand dad worked building newspaper printing presses and I remember when I was about 15 he passed away and all his work buddies came to the funeral and almost to the man they were missing fingers or parts of them. My grand dad died with all ten. The image of all those guys with mangled hands has been in my mind ever since. I agree the SawStop is the way to go I just gotta ante up the $4000 and find a home for my Jet. I don't think there's a price too high to put on one's fingers!
Besides if I lost my fingers Ray wouldn't ever let me drive his Indian (motorcycle). ;-)
Madison
Madison,
If Ray is going to let you take his Indian for a spin, he must think you are a very special person. (of course, you are).
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:
Nah he's just trying to impress me so I'll travel over the great divide and buckle up my leathers and stay the heck out of his shop! With all that period furniture he does I might never leave!
Besides I think he's really just a big flirt!
Madison
Hey Mel, Under the heading of "Choose your own Poison" heading, I just saw a good one. I had to run to the lumber yard for some materials. Along the way, I saw a fellow working on drainage or something along side of the road. He was wearing one of those hard helmets with a full face shield, but then, had a cigarette hanging out of his mouth.
Keith,
A full face shield over a cigarette is a great idea. It lets you breathe in even more of the smoke. :-) Thanks for letting me know.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Yea, I guess I better get back out into the shop. I have a lot of sanding to do tonight. Say, I wonder if I could get one of those helmet / face shields, then hook a vacuum hose up to the top of it, so it would pull all of that sanding dust from the lathe up through there so I could get more of it than I normally do? It's just an idea. ha.
Hi
When I was 6 my dad took us out with old 22 cooey chipmunck, His dad's old rifle, for varmint's around the farm. He gave us very good instruction and said calmly if you ever cause a shooting accident I will kill you.
Took hunter Safety 3-4 times in Cubs and Cadets. Was on city shooting team. During the summer my cousin's and me had full time jobs clearing pastures of gophers (richardson ground squirles). On our uncle's large cattle ranch. We shot thousands of rounds with not even a close call, and and ongoing contest to see you could get the most gophers with 50 shell box. I think we all got 43 at some time.
My hunting buddies and me are experianced and have given up many shots as to ensure safety.
I took industrial arts in high school and still remember toe "one fingered Shop Teacher" lecture about safety on the table saw. Sort of sticks with you.That LV link was interesting! I don't believe they let that through, not up to there usual standard. I can see that cut off hitting the floor and mayhem insuing.Will OSHA jump on this ?
Shoe,
"He gave us very good instruction and said calmly if you ever cause a shooting accident I will kill you".
You lads! Shooting folk seems to be the answer to all life's annoyances, including the annoyance of folk shooting other folk!
Once in a blue moon I see a-one o' them modern cowboy filums on the tele, the sort with squat teams armed to the teeth shooting off zillions of bullets at badguys armed to the teeth and shooting off zillions of bullets. How they jut their jaws and issue the curt monosyllables! How they do lock & load with a fiery glance and an intransigent gesture! No wonder you are all took with firearms - cool as anything (until you get shot).
Lataxe, agog at gun-culture.
Oh aye,
An oncet I saw a movie on telly about a bicycle race. Boring as hell, it were.
Ray
Sorry lataxe. I Live in Canada with it's massive gun laws. and muliti Billion dollar gun registry that makes disposing of a varmint a criminal offence under some obsure interpritation of a bunch of laws. I did hurt the legitimate hunter but did nothing for the criminal element here. I Canada we are not gun folks like our neighbours south. In canada we do not shoot people we, bury them in paper work till they suffocate or go mad due to political correctness!As for my Dad's way of dealing with future consequenses to our actions was to make you realize that for every action there could be a severe consequence that is real! Not pulling the trigger when not safe, turning on the tablesaw when tired and distracted, driving under the influance, When we got our first motorcycle he said" your first accidnet is your last." So we became very good skilled riders, unlike my cousin who has a permenant burn scar that says "Yamaha" in mirror image on his back.His delivery was crude but the message stuck!
Shoe,
It is all to do with attitudes, I know. For example, I read somewhere that 11,000 US citizens are shot dead each year whereas the figure for Canada is tiny in comparison, depite a similar level of gun ownership. The pro-rata killing rate via firearms is very much smaller in Canada, in other words. So, you are all armed to the teef but Canadians keep the things in their holsters much more than do Americans......? Is this just "attitude" or "culture"?
Is it the same with the tablesaw? Do the Murikans use risky TS procedures because they are showing the dang TS just how much John Wayne they have in 'em!? The TS accident figures in the States (of which few are fatal, happily) seem rather high too.
Lataxe, member of a nanny state so will probably die of old age.
Shoe M, if I may thus address you,
Well put. We here in Ozland are beset about with 'No gun' laws also,plus all the supporting and surrounding reems of legislation and piles of fertiliser supposedly to render the affore mentioned a fact.
As you will know,it is only so in the minds of the nations elected representatives,who having been put there by US,promptly forget the reality of life at street level.
We have our police service,all armed to the teeth,legally, chasing the criminal elements,also armed to the teeth,illegally,while the hapless farmer who, of any group must surely be seen to have a genuine need for such machinery,must go through interminable Draconian measures in order to keep even an air-rifle!
It is a damnnmmmn disgrace, I tell you Sir!
Wot was the question?
Robin
Mel.. OLD smoker here.. OK so I smoked before I went into the Army.. I got some old WWII 'C' or were they 'K' rations with a two cartons of Cigarettes. One of Camels and the Green Lucky Strikes.. I was so happy! I was in Germany at the time.. 1960 something.. Cold war thing.. Only thing that bad happen I loved Lucky Strikes! Can I get new lungs from the Army?
I wonder now. I could not get ONE beer because I was not old enough! But got all the 'Smokies' I wanted from the PX!
Next year I could get drinks at the Officer Club for 10 cents? As many as I needed if I was still able to walk out without help..
Fun at the time though! I loved the Army but my wife did not.. so we went back to Chicago!
Edited 2/22/2009 5:16 am by WillGeorge
Edited 2/22/2009 5:22 am by WillGeorge
Will George,
Do you still smoke?
Do you still use a table saw?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Do you still smoke?Do you still use a table saw?
Yep AND at the same time!
Mel,
I have guns. I have had a permit to carry a concealed weapon in Virginia for at least 35 years.
I don't make a habit of shooting at people. Guns are serious tools, not toys.
I don't carry a concealed tablesaw, nor do I aim cutoffs at people. Tablesaws are serious tools, not toys.
I don't have a handplane permit. I don't live in Canada so I don't need one. <gr>
I don't drink. I'm diabetic.
I don't smoke. It's bad for you.
I do, however, watch repeats of Caddyshack.
-Jerry
I, a Canadian, admit to occasionally carrying a concealed staple gun without a permit. Now that I've confessed, they won't be coming to get me, right?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
carrying a concealed staple gun without a permit....
I had a good belly laugh on that one!
Chris,
I'm not sure. What caliber are the staples? I think that hollowpoint staples are illegal.... The Darwin-type are OK.
-Jerry
PS: Thanks for the laugh!
Edit: You DO have a handplane permit, don't you?
Edited 2/22/2009 12:41 pm ET by nazard
Jerry,They're .375" double point staples.Hand plane permit? Excuse me, gotta run...Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Mel,Moi aussi, mon frere, except for the drinking part........Rich (whose daughter is a National pistol champion) in VA
Jerry,
I was once on a pistol team.
I sometimes carry a concealed Lie Nielsen (LA AM Block).
If any teenager tries to take me on, I can remove less than a thousanth from any part of his anatomy which is showing.
I sometimes watch reruns of Baywatch and of Starsky and Kutch.
I like the cerebral TV shows.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Sofar as this thread has morphed more than a few times into several verdant pastures, speaking of Darwin, did you catch this month's Smithsonian mag piece on Darwin and Lincoln. Very interesting reading.
As to planes, I acquired an almost new Stanley No. 4 last week. It was ROUGH and the sole resembled a rather diverse landscape. With only a few bucks to lose, I set to work and now have a usable plane. I'm still not finished flattening the bottom, and I may take a file back to a few places, but all in all the thing works quite respectably. What's your take on the bargain planes at Woodcraft? I remember that Sarge posted here a long time back about fettling an Anant or Grotz jointer. Just curious what you may have picked up on it from your Woodcrafting ventures.
If I do get another plane, it will be legally purchased and not carried concealed on or about my person without the proper permit.... <gr>
Best!
-Jerry
Jerry,
The new Wood River planes are in the Springfield, VA Woodcraft store. They look FANTASTIC. They look like Lie Nielsens. No joke. I had one apart. the iron is thick. All parts are nicely machined, thick, sturdy, etc. While I was in at Woodcraft today, some guy called in and asked how the three screws work on his new Wood River plane. I could see that the man who answered the phone was having trouble so I said I'd handle it. He gave me the phone. I explained the Bailey mechanism to the man. He understood. Then he asked why the blade advancing wheel couldn't move the blade. I said that it is hard to diagnose a patient that one can't see, but I'll bet that if you lift up on the lever cap, you will see that the blade depth adjustment mechanism will free up. He said that he couldn't lift up on the lever cap. I said "Use both hands". Finally he got it up, and he could adjust the blade. I told him that the bolt that holds the lever cap on, needs to be loosened, and all would be fine. I told him that if he took it in, I'd adjust it for him. He said that he'd figure it out.So I went and checked out two more of the planes, and sure enough. The bolts were on so tight that it was difficult to lift up on the lever cap. THis is a minor problem, but it is disappointing. If they are going for "quality", it wouldn't difficult to adjust the planes a little better as they left the plant. I talked to a guy who sharpened his, and he said that he did have to do some work to flatten the back but He likes it. I asked him how flat the sole was, and he said that "it looked flat". He hadn't taken it to sandpaper. So while they look GREAT, the jury is still out in my mind.
That is all i can tell you right now. I will look further into it.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I took a quick look at the Woodcraft site and the planes definitely warrant a trip to the store. I do not have a #3. The next several projects are Arts and Crafts so I will continue being "one with an acorn". The #3 would be useful.
I know that I can buy a L-N and be immediately happy - however, retirement looms, my investments are in the tank, and I still get a kick out of "tuning something up". Perhaps "getting something for nothing" would be the better turned phrase.
Thanks for the tip. I will check it out and let you know the end result.
Best!
Jerry
PS: Almost forgot to post a picture of the new shop assistant.
Mel,Ever tried using a table saw and a jig in place of a cigar cutter? Me neither.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
"Ever tried using a table saw and a jig in place of a cigar cutter?"No, but in a demo, I have run a sled carrying a hot dog into the spinning blade of a Sawstop. Very impressive. Hope it is warming up up North.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
It's actually been really nice here in Port Moody, sunny and 10-ish. Not the same in the East though - snowy!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
used to work with a guy at a cabinet shop who cut a small hole in his dust mask so that he could smoke and sand at the same time...........True.R
You are correct with all the safety issues. What gave me a really great laugh was that my name is Darwin and I too, in my younger years, much younger years would often get in a rush. As the saying goes, "the older I get the smarter I become". Fortunately I no longer get in a rush and I still have everything where it is supposed to be.
everybody,
everybody? really?
eef
Mr. Darwin,
I never thought I'd meet the real Mr. Darwin.
Now I have.
Now I can rest.Glad to hear you have all your digits and that you don't rush as much. Why rush? Woodwork should be fun.
Great to hear from you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
the real Mr. Darwin..
It' would be me.. I love bugs and dogs and a friendy Cat!
Edited 2/24/2009 7:54 pm by WillGeorge
I have travelled about the great USA. for a long time no big deal last time I was there in 2001-2 I was called out from a bar because a Canadaian??
Did not try anything because part of the table I was with was US airforce, and old san Fransico hippies. Shoemaking in Muncie Indiana.
Well on the way to Indianaploilis airport the interstate was under construction we stopped at a big gas station convience store. I tried to ask for directions and just about got shot not once but twice. as a Hoser Canadian I was appaled and will not return. Even though the family farm is 1 mile away from the border and we did reagular beer runs on sunday, when we couldn't buy beer on Sundays in the great province.If you want to visit, please come live on the lake for a while with shoulders relaxed.
Scenery similar but more frelaxing.
Darwin, it may amuse you to know that your namesake (Chuck) has just had a birthday that they are looking to celebrate at the 200,000 person level. Paddy.
http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/12/happy-birthday-chuck/
I have endured that, "are you related to Charles Darwin?" since probably the fifth grade. But it is still nice to have some association to a famous person. That must be my Andy Warhole 15 minutes of fame thing.
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