Cyclone vs canister dust collector?
Good morning all!
I am trying to figure out which style of dust collector to get. I know a cyclone is best, but it is also more expensive. I am a hobby woodworker and will only be running 1 machine at a time. I have a 20×30′ shop that I am just now being able to set up. I will have a 12″ jointer/planer (Grizzly), 17″ bandsaw (Grizzly), 10″ cabinet saw (also Grizzly – I live in SW MO and there is a Grizzly warehouse & store here 🙂 ). I will also have the usual suspects (drill press, eventually lathe, sanders, etc.)
I tend to go overboard & want the absolute best of everything, even if I don’t really need it. My question is for a shop like this is it worth investing in the cyclone (~1 1/2 HP) or will a canister dust collector system (~2 HP) work just as well? There’s about a $400 difference.
In the same vein, how big an air filter would you recommend? Thanks for your help.
Replies
"I tend to go overboard & want the absolute best of everything, even if I don't really need it."
Didn't you just answer your own question? For $400 more, I wouldn't think twice about a cyclone. That is, if your ceiling permits it.
and www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I've never used a canister system. I've had two shops, one 20 x 35 and the current one which is 800 sq ft. Both were serviced by 2hp cyclones.
You mention that the DC will only serve 1 machine at a time. From experience I can tell you that unless you are really compulsive or use automatic gates, you find that you are running machines when you forgot to close a gate or two. My current system is a Grizzly 2hp and it works very well with 2 gates open and depending on the machine I'm using it works with 3 gates open although some of the heavier material will drop out.
DC is not the area where I would scrimp. Your lungs are not worth the "savings."
Regarding air filters and I'm assuming you mean an air filtration unit in addition to the DC, IMHO they are not worth the money or the energy to run them. First, they draw particles up and keep them suspended rather than allowing them to drop out of the air you are breathing. Also, they are conflicting with your central DC in that you are creating a push-pull situation. Calculate the the volume of your shop and then the cfm of the central DC and you will see that you can filter the entire shop many times over by strategically opening gates and running the system for 10 or 15 minutes.
If you decide to use a filter, the setup I've seen that makes the most sense is to use two suspended filters, one one each side of the longest side set several feet out from the side. This supposedly sets up a circulating air stream that is more efficient nd effective than a single centrally mounted air filtration unit.
Doug
I appreciate the response. So in your opinion, I should skip the ambient air filtration, get the cyclone (1 1/2 or 2 HP?) and run it to scrub the air instead? That makes a lot of sense.
That's my opinion but remember what you paid for it LOL.
I would not settle for a 1-1/2 hp system. A 2hp system will handle 6" ducting which will accommodate a cyclone upgrade should you desire this later on. If you size your ducting to a 1-1/2 cyclone and you upgrade latter you will probably have to replace part or all of your ducting to handle the greater air flow without increase static pressure. The difference in cot for the cyclone is far less that to replace ducting.
Check out Bill Pentz's web site . It is the best tutorial around when it comes to DC systems.
"I should skip the ambient air filtration, get the cyclone (1 1/2 or 2 HP?) and run it to scrub the air instead? That makes a lot of sense."Makes no sense to me. Why would you buy one machine designed for one purpose to do two different jobs?I have a regular DC with 1u bag, preseparator (only because I don't like changing the bag), and an overhead (triple) air filter. My shop is very clean, despite not having the best collection-at-the-source. That source collection is important but difficult to get. Even harder to get when the machine is your hand with a block of sandpaper in it. Seems to me you could run a DC all day without cleaning the shop. All you do is force even finer dust out the filter. The only way to stop that is to vent outside. (That's why a outdoor mounted central vac is in my arsenal.)I have the Dylos particle count meter so talked about a couple years ago, and it shows me just how fast and complete the air filter cleans up. I don't operate anything other than a pencil in my shop without it running.I just cut over 400ft of lumber on the weekend and all I had to do was vacuum a bit around the BS (it doesn't have good collection). My advice: get some more advice before sinking your budget in one tool that might be overkill and underkill at the same time.I'll save my opinion of Bill Pentz because he seems like a religeous figure around here for some reason.Andy
Andy,re:"I'll save my opinion of Bill Pentz because he seems like a religeous figure around here for some reason."That's an interesting observation. There is quite an intensity about the subject of dust collection at Pentz' site, and he pretty much explains why, regarding the very serious health problems he suffered as the result of exposure to wood dust. Maybe just being around wood was enough to sensitize him, I don't know.When that kind of intensity interferes with logical thinking that's not a good thing.I don't think any of that has happened. His experiments and observations are well-regarded by wood workers and manufacturers of cyclone systems.His name gets mentioned only occasionally here. And the references generally are of the type, "take a look at his site, there's a lot of information there." I haven't seen anything even approaching his ideas having become a religion, at least on this forum. I've read lots of discussions of many types of DC systems. No one seems to get very dogmatic about anything, and advice seems to be pretty objective and general.Rich
Andy, could the reason be that Mr. Pentz took the time, energy and intellectual and scientific discipline to provide one of the best tutorials on dust collection available on the web?
If you have another independent authority to use as reference, I for one would welcome the opportunity to study their facts and findings. I don't know that Bill is the final word on wood dust and air filtration but until someone comes up with sustainable conflicting information, I think his reputation on this forum speaks for itself.
The most effective air filtration system is one that captures at the source while avoiding lifting fine particles to a level were they can be easily inhaled. I have yet to see evidence that suspended air filtration units avoid drawing the fine particles upward. I have no debate about your air filtration systems provided that I'm not in the space while they are running.
To improve capture at the source a system must be properly designed and installed for maximum efficiency and effectiveness. To my knowledge no one has yet devised a DC system that is within the reach of most us that is more efficient at capturing and trapping fine particles before they get to the filtration stage.
I spent almost a year researching DC before I plunked down my hard-earned cash for a system that would protect my lungs. I had the good fortune not to have to make the choice based on how much I could reasonably afford but rather what was the best system to capture dust based on my shop configuration, machinery and work habits.
So, get your advice from experts rather than from "others." I'm not an expert and I only pass along what I have learned along the way.
Doug
Doug and Rich,I appreciate the breadth/depth of info on his site and your opinion of him. However, the mere fact that you come to his defence is the reason I would not debate the details. Unfortunately, few have.Also, I have never seen anyone with both a vested interest and an objective opinion about any product/service. Just my observations. I don't wish to argue it, just to play devil's advocate.Andy
Andy,
First I'm not defending Bill Pentz, rather, I am defending the proposition that in the absence of definitive information to the contrary on this issue his data seems to the authoritative work. Second, again fact, not defense, Mr. Pentz started his research and publications way before he had any involvement with any product. Third, I suspect that you are hiding behind your rhetoric and that you have few contrary facts with which to argue.
I guess I get a little testy when people take snide unsubstantiated potshots at anyone. Putting it another way, put up or shut up.
Doug
Actually, Back In The Day, the "definitive" work was published right here, by Taunton Press.It is, I'm quite sure, still for sale here. Many of us read it, and it is largely responsible, among other things, for the idea that static electricity can blow you up.Now, there are at least two "definitive" works-- the old one, that most of us read, and the new one, by Pentz.Guess what? They conflict.So you pays your money and you takes your chances.There is never only one way, one authority, or even a "best" way.Follow who you want to follow, I'm quite sure that most of us don't care.But I won't be there.
Are you not following the One Way philosophy yourself?
I cannot find any reference to the publication you refer to so would like a bit more info on it.
I think you are misinterpreting what Pentz is all about. He clearly states that the dust collection industry provides machinery to a certain standard. He used those machines, as do many of us.
He got sick following the status quo. He has challenged the "standard" and provided data which suggests that minimum air flow and velocity should be increased "in order to capture fine dust particles in the 0.5 micron range".
There is no conflict, just information. Standards can and do evolve and improve.
Today we can still purchase dust collectors with every conceivable filter, CFM performance, horse power configuration that is not based on any set condition. The sad part is, the industry does not provide any information that help the consumer make intelligent choices. This is a very critical piece of equipment for everyone's shop and the least understood.
Penz thought he was doing everything properly at one time and now he believes differently. He has put up a lot of data on the subject. When you say he is full of it, you should offer something more than "because".
I am more than happy to look at hard data on this subject. Do you have any?Don
Penz is allergic to wood dust.I know how he feels, I'm allergic to anything that has hair and walks or is green and grows.The worst offenders for me are cats and horses.The main difference between Penz and I is that I don't try to fight nature.I don't ride horses, and I avoid buildings that have cats. Period.The consequences of breaking these simple rules are overwhelming.In other cases, like strawberries for some people, eating one means they die. Bee stings, pollen, whatever it is, allergies are bad business.If I studied things, I could probably rig some spaceman-riff kind of thing with a rebreather and tanks of breathing gas so I could ride horses.Building a "dust collection" system that removes enough dust from the air that a person who is allergic to wood dust can work wood is the same type of endeavor. It's a fool's errand.My main objection to Penz is that he believes there is only one way-- his way. He believes this in spite of lots of anecdotes to the contrary, because those anecdotes occur among people like myself, who are not allergic to wood dust.Telling people that they NEED to build a system that works to the standard HE needs (with his allergy) should be eliminated as bad information on the face of it, but people like yourself miss the fact that he has an allergy that you may or may not have, and maybe you need the air that clean, or maybe a JET cannister with 4" ducts would do the job just fine for you.The "original" work (I'm sure it's not the first, and won't be the last) work is the "Controlling Wood Dust" that has been mentioned by others in this thread.It conflicts with Penz in several ways, so yes, there are conflicts, whether you want to see them or not.Contempt prior to investigation will keep you in ignorance indefinitely.I simply avoid horses and cats. Penz should avoid wood dust. People who suffer with allergies will recognize the folly of fighting to find a way to indulge the thing you are allergic to, but I'm not going to dress up in a space suit just to ride horses, and my need for that space suit doesn't mean that anyone else needs the same space suit to ride the same horses.There is never just one way.
jammer,Of course there are always more than one way to do anything. But I think you are missing the point, not people who have looked at the broad applicability of Pentz' information.Yes, he is allergic to (some) wood dust. That's what motivated him to develop the best dust trapping system he could. And he succeeded. Yes, he is passionate and makes no pretense of it. And often, it is just that kind of special need that pushes people to do what has never been done (correctly) before. While there are many ways to accomplish dust collection, the kinds of systems Pentz describes work better than the canister type of systems generally available to us.There are many ways to collect dust. Both kinds of systems (cyclones and filter-only systems) theoretically can do equivalent jobs. But a filter-only system must possess an astronomically large surface area, be composed of a filter fabric yet-to-be-invented to withstand the abrasive action of dust and have a means of constantly scrubbing the dust cake from the fabric to continuously function with the efficiency of a cyclone. Such filter-only systems don't exist.Woodworkers do NOT have to be allergic to wood to benefit fully from the super efficient, fine dust trapping capability of a system that lets an allergic person such as Pentz enjoy woodworking. His systems are NOT the result of mad obsession by someone who should never be allowed within breathing range of a wood shop. The chronic respiratory problems that can develop from chronic exposure to dust, including everything from simple irritation, propensity to infection to pulmonary fibrosis and even carcinoma have nothing to do with allergies.Any of us could develop such conditions. Should we all avoid exposure to wood the way you have ("simply") avoided horses and cats? Apparently the ONE & ONLY WAY you believe any one should deal with an environmental irritant that is potentially health-threatening?(and now I understand others' comments about how these discussions become heated!)Rich
Edited 9/9/2009 7:05 pm ET by Rich14
The reason I responded to this thread is simple.The original poster (remember him?) is trying to decide which level of dust collection to invest in.I'm quite sure he's aware by now that there are many of us who are happily generating sawdust in our basement, by the garbage can full, and collecting it via 1.5 hp dust collection systems that would never meet with the Penz stamp of approval.We are violating several of his sacred issues, for one simple reason: we don't need the level of dust collection he does to work wood safely.Carpenters, in fact, both outside and inside, make more cuts in a day than most of us do in a week, with NO dust collection. We view any dust collection as a luxury.If you bought into the Penz Religion, and you spent thousands of dollars for his one and only approved Clear vu dust collection cyclone system, then I say more power to you.I spent that money on material, because I'm perfectly happy with what I have.But then, I don't need to worry about my lungs. I'm going to die because I tear down someone's holy relic on the internet, and they're going to hunt me down and shoot me.If you want a Penz system, by all means, have at it.Or you can buy a cheaper system from any of the reputable manufacturers, and I bet you'll be perfectly happy.Or you can buy a canister system, and I bet that'll keep you happy, too, if it's set up right.But if you NEED a Penz level system, if you NEED a spacesuit to cut wood, then I suggest you avoid cats and horses, and investigate golf or sailing as a hobby, because when you go up against Mother Nature, you're going to lose.Everyone be nice, now. :)
Well, You have certainly mastered the technique of exaggeration and hyperbole.Yes I do have a Clear Vue product. And I had no idea that brand has been "approved" within the "Pentz Religion" (a fictitious entity you keep creating). It just cost me a lot less than other brands of cyclones (Grizzly, Oneida). It took a bit of work to put it together (unlike the other brands) it's not what one would call a turn-key product. It works real good. Sucks up all the dust. Keeps my shop real clean. I like that. Simple.Done. See ya.Rich
Ah, there we go.Of course.I've seen that happen in four hobbies, now.Once someone spends thousands of dollars on a system, there can be nothing wrong with it, nor any word said against it.It's why I don't trust reviews written by someone who has bought a product."Done" is a wise choice. I believe I'll join you. I'm certain the original poster has heard all sides, now, including both true sides.
Jammer,What's really irritating about this "interchange" is your Know-It-All attitude as you spout misinformation and denigrate the work of others, yet provide NOTHING of a factual basis. Just negative judgmental opinion. Repeatedly. No one knows a thing but you and you put everyone down.I don't really care what you've "seen happen in four hobbies now." I'm no hobby wood worker.YOU don't believe reviews from people who own the equipment they advocate. YOU have decided that Bill Pentz has no business being near wood because YOU have an allergy to horses and cats and YOU have solved that the ONLY way, YOUR way.I've tried to keep this civil, but frankly, you haven't a clue, just an awful lot of negativity.My system didn't cost thousands. And my recommendations about it are my honest observations, not a biased view because I've spent a little money. My table saw alone cost more that 7 times the price of my D/C and I could have spent several times more for the cyclone than I did. Some people buy a new car. Some like to get other kinds of equipment. And I bought the best equipment I could, and I'm very proud of that and I make absolutely no excuses about it. I'm very lucky to have been able to do that.Your negativism comes across as vitriol, not experience that you can use to help inform others who contribute here or just like to read these threads.I spent a total of $1200 including shipping for my 5 hp cyclone. The lowest priced 5 hp filter-bag system, a Grizzly, costs the same. (Other brands are more) It has twin filter bags which stand over 11' tall. Ignoring the fact that it's 3 feet taller than the ceiling in my shop, it takes up 4 times the floor space of my cyclone. It has NO where near the performance of my machine. Grizzly calls it their "5 HP Industrial" model. Their 5 HP cyclone is $2500 plus $135 shipping.I bought from a mom-and-pop (literally) tiny business that manufactures an outstanding product using only materials, including the superb Leeson motor, wholly made in the United States. The owner (and principle employee) was happy to spend lots of time on the phone giving me tips and advice about installation and use. I bought just before he planned to shut down 10 days for Christmas holidays. He promised my machine would ship before he left and he was good to his word. The equipment was everything it was advertised to be and he has been available to talk and through his Web site since I bought. Service before, during and after the sale of an outstanding product. THAT is the kind of customer satisfaction that American businesses have long forgotten how to give.So who buys the more "expensive" machine? The buyer of an off-shore piece of equipment of obsolete design that needs a factory-sized space to run and whose filtering material will eventually need expensive replacement or a compact, efficient, state of the art machine like a well-designed cyclone?I hope the information I've presented, all facts, will help someone reading this far. As far as I'm concerned, your negative, uninformed and factually incorrect nonsense helps no one.Rich
Edited 9/10/2009 7:31 pm ET by Rich14
Wow...Now we're back to Chinese-ophobia?Are you sure you don't want to bring Wood River into this?
"I'm quite sure he's aware by now that there are many of us who are happily generating sawdust in our basement, by the garbage can full, and collecting it via 1.5 hp dust collection systems that would never meet with the Penz stamp of approval."That's what I meant to say. My biggest concern is with the conclusion that one 5hp size fits all. I have three collection systems with different combinations of pressure and volume, as well as an overhead machine. The whole lot costs less than a cyclone system with ducting and they provide more appropriate collection to all the different activities I do. My Dylos agrees.Andy
"Penz should avoid wood dust."He should probably also avoid rat poison. :) Andy
"Building a "dust collection" system that removes enough dust from the air that a person who is allergic to wood dust can work wood is the same type of endeavor. It's a fool's errand."The OSHA limit for industrial woodworkers is 5mg/cu meter (2.5mg/cubic meter). I measured this out a few years back for a presentation. It is a very small amount of dust when swept from the floor. "Telling people that they NEED to build a system that works to the standard HE needs (with his allergy) should be eliminated as bad information on the face of it, but people like yourself miss the fact that he has an allergy that you may or may not have, and maybe you need the air that clean, or maybe a JET cannister with 4" ducts would do the job just fine for you."I quit smoking 7 years ago. Through Bill Penz I have learned that my shop environment can be just as harmful.
I believe he is making a solid point that your 1 1/2HP canister does not do a very good job of collecting particles smaller than 1 micron.
This warning is not one way, it is simply tightening up on old assumptions. If you are happy with what you have then fine, but as I stated earlier, some of the assumptions from the 80's and 90's as to what constitutes a healthy shop environment can and should be improved on.
I have 2 machines. A 2HP single stage and 5HP cyclone. The 2 HP with 1 micron bag was a true dust pump. I switched it over to a canister. More flow, less dust in the air, but far from acceptable.
I was sold on cyclones well before I had ever heard of Pentz mainly because I have seen cyclones work and have engineering contacts in heavy industry who support the design. I did not fully understand how badly designed tha average single stage DC is though.
Your reference work was first published in 1995 and updated in 2002. I will read the current version as that is all that is currently available.
In FWW Mar/Apr 96, Sandor Nagyszalanczy presented an article titled Small-Shop Dust Collectors. I will assume for the present that the information presented is similar to what was contained in the initial publication of his work.
Noticably absent is any discussion of cannisters, even for big cyclones. Likely because the technoloy wasn't prominent at the time. Many industrial blowers discharged into bag houses. Spun polyester felt was the most common media. He talks of using 5 or 6" main ducts, 4" branch, understanding the real CFM ratings, sizing the unit, sp losses. Nothing that is not coverered in far greater detail by Penz.
Penz has taken this information up a notch. Anyone can read it, and make their choice accordingly - go high or go low.
This is not a conflict.
But the fact that you consistently come on line a and basically state that the the man's position is basically BS and have absolutely no data that shows he is position is flawed contributes little to anyone's learning.You would appear to have us using your particular approach and well if you can't cut it, get out of the shop."Contempt prior to investigation will keep you in ignorance indefinitely."
What gives with this statement? Who is stuck in the 90's.Don
You seem to equate the problem of exposure to wood diseases as limited to those with allergic reactions. The answer: don’t get around it. You go on to imply that there are limited problems with exposure to wood dust provided you create your dust outdoors. What a colossal display of ignorance and arrogance.<!----><!----><!---->
NIOSH recognizes three types of cancers directly associated with the inhalation of wood dust: nasal and sinus cancers, adenocarcinoma and Hodgkins Disease. Additionally, other restrictive respiratory diseases are also directly linked to exposure of wood dust including asthma. Add to this the contact dermatitis and you simply cannot ignore the potential danger by inadequate dust collection. All of these diseases are not allergy related.<!----><!---->
The following is a partial list of the more common woods and diseases proven to be associated with exposure to their dust particles: <!----><!---->
Wood Type<!----><!---->
Health Effects<!----><!---->
Alder (common, black, red)<!----><!---->
Dermatitis associated with black alder, no reports with red alder, decrease in lung function (red alder)<!----><!---->
Aspen<!----><!---->
Dermatitis (wood cutters’ disease) due to lichens growing on the bark of beech trees, rhinitis, asthma, nasal cancer<!----><!---->
Birch (paper, white)<!----><!---->
Irritant dermatitis<!----><!---->
Cedar, Western Red<!----><!---->
Asthma, allergic contact dermatitis, sensitizer, decrease in lung function, eye irritation and conjunctivitis, rhinitis<!----><!---->
Douglas Fir<!----><!---->
Contact eczema, decrease in lung capacity<!----><!---->
Fir<!----><!---->
Skin irritation, dermatitis, rhinitis, asthma, possible decrease in lung function<!----><!---->
Hemlock<!----><!---->
Skin irritation, decreased lung function<!----><!---->
Larch<!----><!---->
Allergic dermatitis from European larch, no reports with western larch<!----><!---->
Mahogany<!----><!---->
Dermatitis, sensitizer<!----><!---->
Maple<!----><!---->
Rhinitis, asthma, Maple Bark Strippers’ Disease (mould spores in bark)<!----><!---->
Oak<!----><!---->
Nasal cancer<!----><!---->
Pine (white, lodgepole, jack)<!----><!---->
Skin irritation, contact dermatitis, Wood-Pulp Workers’ Disease (mould in bark), rhinitis, and asthma<!----><!---->
Poplar<!----><!---->
Contact dermatitis (with sawdust contact), rhinitis<!----><!---->
Rosewood<!----><!---->
Eczema, allergic contact dermatitis<!----><!---->
Spruce<!----><!---->
Skin irritation, Wood-Pulp Workers’ Disease (mould spores in bark), decrease in lung function<!----><!---->
Teak<!----><!---->
Toxic, dermatitis, sensitizer<!----><!---->
Walnut (black)<!----><!---->
Irritation of skin, dermatitis, toxic<!----><!---->
Yew<!----><!---->
Skin irritation, rhinitis, possible asthma<!----><!---->
I can tell you after 30 years as a medical administrator and the last six years of my career working dealing the aftermath of individuals exposed to airborne carcinogens, dust collection at the source should be at the forefront of our woodworking safety procedures and equipment. <!----><!---->
This thread may have run its course and then some.There are two nonhobbiests jumping all over any suggestions that the job could be done with less than $2k. It can. It has been. It has been tested. It does not need proof here. I have used the best tool I could afford to test it for myself -- the same tool advised (and advertised) by BillP. Unlike most of you (including BillP), I don't even have a broom in the building. Cannot fathom why anyone would. You might as well turn your cigarette around and toke on the lit end. My shop is vacuumed during and after each job. Its a small task as the other machines do such a good job of reducing dust.Until those (two) of you spouting about cancer risks have removed smoking, plastics, MDF, auto pollution, carpets, paint, and the dozens of other carcinogens from your lives, you can get bent.I agree with the logic, analogies and conclusions of Jammersix. If I became deathly allergic to a hobby, I would have to give that up. If I became allergic to rat poison because it almost killed me when I was younger (like BillP), then I would not ingest that again, either.For some of us, this is a hobby. That means we produce less sawdust, we inhale less sawdust, and we have a smaller budget for sawdust. That means finding a safe AND efficient solution. If the OP is a hobbiest, he would do well to research his options before jumping into something he might not need. I *know* my solution does the job for me and then some, and cost less. I don't need a 'professional' telling me what I need or how much I should spend. Nor, I think do most hobbyists. If I wanted that, I could call most home contractors
to come over and offer to screw me. I should not be pestered from this forum for making suggestions that work for me.I don't know about Jammersix, but my contribution was just to let the OP and the many lurkers who must have the same question know that it can be done with less than $2k and less than 110dB. Having done that, we are called names and judged, not on our merits, but because our opinion is not the same as some 'pros'. How hypocritical is it to be labelled arrogant in this context.Perhaps there should be hobbyist-only and pro-only forums. Its possible that some of us want to hear what works for others in the same situation, and not have those in completely different situations ram it down our throats. In the meantime, I'll just make use of the user-filter I had to use before the last time I stopped using this board. I lump you in the same category as dgreen. Contrats.Andy
"Until those (two) of you spouting about cancer risks have removed smoking, plastics, MDF, auto pollution, carpets, paint, and the dozens of other carcinogens from your lives, you can get bent."That cracked me up, having quit smoking 17 years ago."I couldn't date a man who smokes.""Oh, damn..."
Andy,Just a little curious (emphasis on little)."jumping all over any suggestions that the job could be done with less than $2k"Where do you (and the other guy) keep coming up with this $2K figure?No one here advocating cyclones jumped all over ANYthing. No one ever said that cyclones are the only way to collect dust. No one said that anyone has to use ANY particular kind of equipment. But some DID react to the furious rejection of good data available about dust collection and the real hazards of wood dust.But the objections that you guys raise to Pentz' information is into the category of hysterical. It's just information. You can do with it whatever you want. Ignore it. Who cares? That does not make it any the less valid. Clean up your shop with a shop vac. Knock yourself out. Breathe deep, while you're doing it. That way you'll get the full benefit of the crap that's blowing right back into the air. I don't care.Due to his allergies, Pentz should never be allowed to go near wood again, therefore his information is invalid, huh?. THAT's a pretty dogmatic, hysterical, absurd attack. All you guys have done is attack the man (and others here), and having decided he's misguided (he is not) you justify your outrage about his facts. Childish.Home contractors screw you, contributors her "pester" you. Huh? People who express opinions here should "get bent." (And in another thread you announce that you intend to use the "Ignore Author" function here so you don't have to read things you disagree with and that others should do the same). Nice.Two of us here are spouting about cancer risks? Spouting?I have no idea who the "pros" are here whom you seem to also object to. But if there are any, I'd sure like to get their input, because, that appellation is universally a sign of respect and acknowledgment of experience and wisdom. But in your mind, advice from a pro equates to advising a "hobbiest" of something they don't need.Someone here has called you names? Whaat!Amazing paranoia.I love it when people can have intelligent discussions and share information and ideas, especially disparate ones. Too bad you don't know how to do that.You're a real piece of work. You apparently enjoy wearing blinders. Enjoy your Ignore Author-limited view of the forum.Rich
Just to set the record straight, I think I am one of the "nonhobbieist (sic)" to whom you refer.
My DC system includes a 2hp Grizzly cyclone (purchased "never used" used from Craig's List) running a 7" main, 6" feeders (metal) serving 8 ports all metal ducting and fittings purchased for less than $400 from a local HVAC shop. I also have a shop vac on 2.5" pvc ducting to a dust deputy and HEPA filter when running sanders and small tools with dust ports. I have a shop-made overhead blade guard/dust collector and the cut-off and RAS are well-shrouded and ported. The cyclone is located in a separate room adjacent to the shop and I re-filter the returning air during the winter and port directly outside during the temperate months. I also do my finish work on a shop-made down-draft sanding table.
All of this was bought, made and installed for between $1,400 - $1,500.
Oh, almost forgot: I am a hobbyist, always have been and I thank you for the unintended compliment.
Edited 9/12/2009 11:32 am ET by DougGF
"Original poster" here. Sorry to start such controversy, but I think there is some good information in here once all of the arguments are weeded out. I decided to get the 2 HP Grizzly cyclone and a ceiling mounted air filter unit. I am working on the ducting now, so I would be interested in hearing how you set this up in your shop for < $400. You said you went through a local HVAC shop - what type of ducting did you use?
I am also a hobbyist, and am also a physician - I know that fine wood dust is a risk for anyone - allergic or not - & I think everyone should collect as much of it as they can from a health standpoint. At some point there are diminishing returns as far as cost/efficiency - that's what I was trying to figure out. Now that I have my DC system, I need to figure out how to keep it as efficient as possible to keep me as safe as it can. Thanks for the advice.
Please don't apologize for starting any controversy. The issue really wasn't about this vs. that.
The ducting is standard gauge HVAC metal pipe and fittings. The wyes are the most expensive fittings depending on the type you get. I used standard air-handling wyes, the least expensive. I used 10' of 7" and 50 ft of 6" straight pipe. The 7" is jointed to the cyclone with the flex that came with the unit I bought used. I used at minimum of 2 adjustable elbows at each turn to provide a larger radius. For most of the tools I used straight pipe drops as close as I could get them and then connected to the ports/blast gates. Most of my ports are 5" except the overhead blade guard (3"), router table and a separate dust pickup on the RAS blade guard are 2.5 which I have found to adequate for the tasks even though they are somewhat choked down. The BS is 4" and I have found that to work well considering that it is really difficult to capture all of the dust and debris on this tool.
I had to buy new blast gates and hose clamps and I already had the various sized flex hose. If everything was bought new it probably would have been closer to $550.00, which still isn't bad.
My previous shop DC system was 2 hp Oneida cyclone, again bought used.. Oneida designed and supplied all of the duct work, hoses, clamps, and fittings. The runs and number of ports were about the same and the total cost, 6 years ago, was around 1$400.
I used almost 2 rolls of metal duct tape. Every seam needs to be sealed. I also siliconed where the blast gate joins the ports/flanges.
Its not sleek and pretty but it works well.
Hope this helps, good luck and enjoy the process.
Doug
I don't know about metal ducts, I used ABS, mainly because I had some lying around.I used the microswitch gates from Penn State, which I think is important, because it ensures that only one gate is open at a time. Originally, I had the cheap plastic gates, and I got really tired of running around making sure all of them were closed every time I opened one.P.S. Don't apologize for causing controversy, while thinking is painful for some, it's good for all. :)
Edited 9/14/2009 7:40 pm by Jammersix
I considered ABS but I had problems finding the right reducers and fittings to mate to the blast gates. I live in a fairly isolated area so you you tend to make do with what is available and repairable/replaceable. ABS is slightly more efficient in that static pressure is reduced with smoother radiused elbows. Cleaner looking also.
Well, in four inch ABS, the Penn State blast gates slip right in.Then I simply drilled holes and used pop rivets. Seems to me the pop rivet gun was less than twenty bucks at Homeless Despot.There are places, like the pickup on the bottom wheel of the bandsaw, that I fabricated, where I wanted a flexible hose, and Rockler sells an adaptor that worked there for a slip fit.As a side note, ABS is slightly more expensive than PVC. But it cuts on a chopsaw, too, which made things pretty simple. PVC can be heated and stretched, but it seemed faster and cleaner to me to use the chopsaw.I'm not a plumber, by any stretch of the imagination, and both ABS and PVC give me hives.Good luck!P.S. I'm even less of a photographer than I am of a plumber, but I'll try to get a picture of the blast gates. I strongly recommend the switched gates, simply because they ensure that only one gate is open without romping all over the shop before each cut.
Edited 9/14/2009 11:23 pm by Jammersix
OK - now we're talking useful info. If I use ABS or PVC, how do you ground it to make sure it doesn't explode, and is it hard to get all of those switched gates to coordinate? Also - I know that the best thing to do is to use as large a duct as possible for as long as possible. Does PVC come in anything larger than 4"? I think the Grizzly has a 7" intake.
Edited 9/15/2009 9:16 am ET by Eireannach
If I use ABS or PVC, how do you ground it to make sure it doesn't explode
There are a few threads regarding this, it's not a danger. The dust concentrations do not get high enough.
I used metal HVAC pipe, it was much easier to source and I could get the fittings at the local Home Depot.
I didn't worry about grounding it, my system isn't grounded. After all the uproar about explosions, it turns out that when asked for documentation, no one has ever produced a single, documented case of an explosion caused by static electricity in a dust collection system.It's the easiest demonstration that even "definitive" sources can be definitively wrong.The gates aren't coordinated, they're simply controlled by a low voltage system sold by Penn State, called "The Long Ranger" that controls the power to the dust collector. The power is on unless all the gates are closed. So when the dust collector shuts off, you know that all the gates are closed. Then you open the gate you want, use it, and shut it again.I chose it because I didn't want to try to keep track of a remote in a shop full of tools.I bought mine online, at http://www.pennstateind.com/store/LRMSET110.htmlPVC comes in much larger sizes; in ABS the standard is four inch.Have fun!
I was reading some of the responses about gates. There really shouldn't be too many gates to deal with. I've run big 6" lines to most of the stationary machines, and split them at the machine as needed. At present I have my table saw, band saw, jointer, and a floor sweep all permanently hooked up. I also have one that's hooked to a 4" hose for the planer (planer has a fan ejection), but I only hook that up occasionally. That's only 5 gates.
The worst case scenario is that all the gates are left closed, as I've seen pictures of collapsed duct work. If more than one gate is left open it just means a drop in performance; not ideal for dust collection but not the end of the world.
Eirannach, I see you've gotten a couple of responses mentioning that grounding isn't a must. Here's the article that got people reconsidering the whole grounding issue. Not everyone in the universe agrees, but it's worth a read.
Re: the controversies stirred up here.....dust collection must be in the Top Five topics that get people going, the ol' Chevy v Ford syndrome, but worse.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I've never understood that...How on earth can any reasonable person make a case for Ford?
Hey! Hey! Hey! Now don't be disparaging...
Oh forget it. Don't want to start another war..
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
I'm just glad that Fine Woodworking finally solved the great benchdog debate by declaring, once and for all, that square dogs are better.It's good to have THAT question finally resolved.
Edited 9/18/2009 6:25 pm by Jammersix
...dust collection must be in the Top Five topics that get people going.
The funny thing is like a Sawstop discussion the arguments are less about the topic and more about how the message was delivered...
Thanks for that link. It was a good read.
3 chev trucks 1 VW golf
One advantage of metal duct over pvc or abs (besides static electicity/grounding issues) is that the person using plumbing pipe will limit it to a 4" diameter out of convenience when a 5" or 6" would be most efficient, and easy to get when ordering metal duct. The smaller the duct, the greater the friction; it's just as important a factor as using the right shape fittings and the shortest runs possible. Of course I can't tell you the right diameters for your system, but I could point you to some places to start.Brian
Thin-wall PVC pipe in 6" and 8" diameter and larger pipe and fittings are readily available through commercial plumbing or irrigation suppliers. The larger dimensions can be slightly more per foot than HVAC metal duct, but not much. The elbows and wyes are more costly than equivalent HVAC fittings but cheaper than DC fittings. It is also referred to as sewer and drain line. Thin-wall is more than sufficiently strong for small shop duct systems. The hazards of static discharge from falls into the category of urban myth. Fire dangers related to DC usually are caused by electrical shorts, overheated motors or sparks from metal debris striking the DC's metal impellers.
Doug
Andy,I have come to no one's defense. I have only said that there is good information at Pentz' Web site.Playing devil's advocate is a position of respect only if the person doing that has a basis for alternative conclusions.I don't really understand what you're "deviling" about. And I wonder if you do. Your only point seems to be that because a significant number of people have found Pentz' data compelling and have confirmed the factual nature of the information that a religion has been established.So you've set up a straw man and then knocked him down. I have no reason to like Mr. Pentz, nor to dislike him. I've never met him. But that makes no difference. I don't have an opinion of HIM. I have an opinion about his INFORMATION. And THAT's all that matters.I think the design of his site is an atrocity. I think his information is poorly-organized, that he rambles and that he is very passionate about the topic. I think he's the kind of guy who is very loyal to his friends and is a SOB with those he doesn't like. So what? Does that make any of the data he presents less valuable?I've examined his information and I've followed his logic and conclusions about that data and I don't find much in the way of flaws there. And equipment based on his designs performs very, very well.Just what is it about any of Pentz' information about (his design of) cyclone systems that you find objectionable and what data to the contrary do you have to offer?Just saying that because a lot of people accept the information he has compiled constitutes a religion, therefore reason to suspect it is just misinformed.Rich
Edited 9/9/2009 6:22 am ET by Rich14
I think the two of you have read more into my original comment than was there. Having said that, I think you have made my point for me that its a touchy topic.I think we can agree that there is plenty of useful information on the site. No more argument please.Andy
The cyclone part of a cyclone system is just a prefilter. It removes a lot of the dust from the air stream, which then passes through another filter before it returns to the shop. That other filter is often a cartridge, just like in the canister systems you're talking about. In both systems, it is ultimately the cleaning propreties of that cartridge which is protecting your lungs. The benefit of the cyclone is that it reduces the frequency with which you must clean the cartridge. But you can get the air just as clean without the cyclone prefilter.
jamie,Calling the cyclone part of a cyclone system a "pre-filter" is really a misunderstanding of the operation of a properly-designed cyclone. I highly recommend Bill Pentz' site for a thorough discussion of this topic and his description of a well-designed system.In fact, manufacturers of poorly-designed cyclones use terms such as "two-stage design" as a marketing twist to somehow imply that their products are better due to "more than one stage" and deflect attention from the fact that their units don't, in fact, work well.In a properly-functioning cyclone, so much dust (and more importantly, so much fine dust) drops out of the air flow in the cyclone stage that only a miniscule amount ever reaches the final filters.Without doubt, the final filters are needed to complete the system, but even with heavy use, the dust that accumulates there amounts to a few table spoon fulls after dozens of changes of the main dust bin.If the filters need to play a larger role than that, the cyclone is not doing its job.Clear Vue is built to Pentz' specifications. I understand Oneida systems perform similarly, as do some other brands, but there have been poorly-designed models which may have given rise to the mistaken belief that the filters play a large role.Rich
Edited 9/8/2009 4:38 pm ET by Rich14
How about a compromise and get a hybrid cansiter/cyclone? I'm with you on going overboard, but I couldn't get a full cyclone. I got the JDS 2100-CK. It has a nice two stage dust collection. Also, it automatically cleans the filter for you after you power it off.
BTW: How do you like the Jointer/Planer?
I'll have to check the JDS 2100-CK out. I don't think I have run across the hybrid ones yet. Thanks.
I haven't had a chance to use the jointer/planer yet. We just moved into our house that we built & this is my first tool that I got for my new actual separate dedicated wood shop. (I have a great wife!!) I'm still setting up the shop. From the test I did, it's smooth, easy, and so far accurate. I have high hopes.
I call it a hybrid, but JDS calls it a cyclone. Why do I call it that? Mainly because the cyclone part of it isn't tall enough to separate the finer chips and dust from the filter and fine dust bag. If you take light passes over material, the impellers are too powerful and keep the smaller particle whirling until they settle into the dust bag instead of the canister. I do love the compact size and power of the unit though.For more money and bigger footprint, there's the Oneida Portable, for less money, there's the Oneida Mini-Gorrilla.
Eireanach,
I've never used the cyclone but I think one of its key features over the canister type is emptying the chips and saw dust. I do know it's a pain with the canister.
I'm thinking about using my jet cyclone top as an inline chip removal with a trash can underneath because the can is very easy to empty. In your case the jointer/planer would generate the most waste and the TS would be #2, the rest of the machines are much much less. Also, I'm going to add a second flex hose so that the TS can be always attached and the second hose with a gate be used for the other machines.
One argument against Pentz in my mind is that there is never "only one way" rarely even "one best way", and I always view anyone who makes such claims as suspect.
I've used a 1.5 HP cannister, 4" ducts and an aircleaner for decades.
But then, could be that Back In The Day, we were born tougher. :)
Have you checked out the Oneida website? Their 2.5 hp high efficiency Gorilla series cyclone sucks almost as much (air) as a 3hp, but on less current than a 2hp! Cfm isn't all about horse power, but the package as a whole. They offer fan curves (performance graphs for cfm vs. static pressure) for each model, and I'd be curious to compare them to other manufacturers. The longer the runs, the more cfm you need to overcome static pressure losses. You're talking about a not small shop with large tools in it . . . anyway I recommend Sandor Nagyszalanczy's book "Workshop Dust Control" by Taunton Press.
Brian
Easy answer; cyclone. I started with a 2hp Jet non-cyclone DC and it has been replaced with an Oneida cyclone. The killer was fine dust from resawing veneer with the bandsaw. The Jet filter would clog in a few hours. Also it was a real PITA to empty the Jet bag and clean the filter. Rotating the paddle did not do a good enough job of cleaning the filter. Fine dust is a challenge for the Oneida too but not nearly so much. Now if you didn't live in SW MO I would be saying something else and trying to sell you a used Jet DC. :-)
...tom
I've used both. The important issues are that you have proper collection points at each machine and that these point have the proper airflow.
If you're setting up a permanent shop, I'd go with a cyclone. It'll have better air flow.
That said if you want a mobile shop, and don't mind push the collector around as you use machines get the canister. I probably wouldn't hook a cannister up to a ducting network.
Something to keep in mind. I bought my cyclone used for $600, my ducting cost me nearly $300 and I'm not done.
Edited 9/9/2009 10:33 am by Buster2000
Yes - the ducting. I have started looking at that & it is quite expensive too. Grizzly sells a startup set for about $350 that will probably get ductwork to one machine. I'm sure there is another cheaper alternative, but I haven't found it yet.
It sounds like the consensus so far is cyclone. I still haven't gotten a feel for if the air filtration unit is worth it or not. I appreciate your responses so far.
I currently own an old Oneida 2hp dust boy cannister style collector. I am very unsatisified with the results i am getting through 6 inch main line pipe. My recomendation would be to buy a Penn State 2.5 hp Tempest 1425S. I think it will give you the performance you will need for a reasonable price. Plus they offer a design service that is free with the purchase of their system. As far as the pipe goes for the system as long as you are under 5hp for your DC you can use 26 ga snap lock pipe. This pipe can be bought from local home centers or HVAC supply houses. Good luck solving your DC problem
Dustin
I still haven't gotten a feel for if the air filtration unit is worth it or not.
The people that have the dylos testing equipment indicate that it does improve the air quality. There is a though that it just keeps the fine dust suspended.
I have found the best thing for me is to just keep the shop door (garage door open). But that isn't practical year round, nor during the quiet parts of the day.
Overhead air filtration or scrubbing is as fraught with confusion as the entire dust collection topic.
If you go by the numbers, most, if not all scrubbers use elements with nominal ratings equal to the primary dust collector.
There is a study published in the October 2006 issue of Wood Magazine revealed that a standard box fan with a decent pleated filter taped to it ranked second to the JDS-750. 2 or 3 of these hanging from your ceiling might be more effective than a single unit.
The stuff that is floating around your head is the most lethal dust. You should always wear a P95 or P100 respirator when exposed to wood dust.
Don
Just my two cents on ducting:Ducting is not only a lot of money but a lot of planning. The main reason that I chose the JDS Cyclone was portability. I wanted to be able to use it NOW. I hook it up to one machine at a time with a 10 foot hose that it came with. It also came with four fully rotating urethane wheels. I knew that it'd be a while before I'd ever hook up ducting because you really have to work in the shop for a while to know where you want the machines.
That is true - I went out tho the shop last night & was trying to figure out the best placement for everything & thinking about what else I would eventually like to have & where to put that, and then how to run ducting to access all of it. It was a bit overwhelming. I don't know enough about cfm/static pressure/air dynamics yet. My problem is that I know there is one best design for the layout of everything, but I don't know what that actually is & I get frustrated trying to figure it out. (See a theme here?) :)
This dust collecting project is going to be costly and you only want to do it once like any other major piece of equipment you buy. You have some serious dust generating machines so I would suggest that this is not the time to skimp. The overall efficiency of the entire dust collection system will either compliment or detract from your enjoyment of your shop.
Despite some of the noise on this you can certainly still go to the Bill Pentz website and take full advantage of the information presented and use Bill's static calculator to assist in assessing the impact of a bend here or there, flex hose vs smooth ducting and duct diameter. If the SP losses from your ducting exceeds the capacity of the blower, then you are not going to be very happy.
You need to avoid bends and flex hose as much as possible. PVC pipe and fittings are an alternative especially if you want to run 5" or 6" mains and no you will not blow up as a result of static electricity discharges.
I know that the folks at the main manufacturers will provide a lot of support once you commit to their machine.
As far as a best layout, that is going to depend on how you locate your stationary tools. Hopefully you have a workflow in mind that suits your floor space. Search the net for shop layouts. http://www.oneida-air.com/installation/show_us_your_workshop.php
http://www.gallery2.clearvuecyclones.com/main.phpPenn State Industries and Oneida will provide design assistance. Knowing you shop layout in advance is critical to ensuring the DC is powerful enough to accommodate your needs.Dr Rod Cole has published an article debunking the dangers of PVC ducting. PVC is economical and easy to install.
http://home.comcast.net/~rodec/woodworking/articles/DC_myths.html Draw your shop out to scale and make sure the machines are where you want them. If you get it right fist time, you might be the first.Don
Huh. That's interesting.I've enjoyed upgrading in the past.I have a couple "industrial" machines, one being a tablesaw. I bought the best tablesaw I could afford at the time, (ten years ago) intending it to be the last tablesaw I would ever buy, and reasoning they would never come up with a major redesign to something as basic and evolved as a tablesaw.Then SawStop came out.Oops.I installed ductwork because I got tired of all the time I was spending hooking up and unhooking dustcontrol hoses.When I added machines, I would cobble stuff together, and it would start all over again.So the SECOND time I did the ductwork, (actually DWV pipe, in my case) I "built in" future expansion. I have extra Ts in the main trunk, and the control wire has loops in it at each extra T, so I can just add additional drops in the future, rather than starting all over from scratch or (gasp!) resorting to the bad old days of flexible hose.My system is controlled by Penn State's microswitched gates, and coming from my generation, this is a good thing!So I suggest you leave room for expansion. (Another Penz no-no, but I assume you're a big boy and can make your own decisions.)At any rate, remember there's never just one way, and have fun!
The main thing I took from Penz was the value of venting the DC to the outside, like many commercial shops do. It's the equivalent of a zero micron filter at almost zero cost. You may spend a little more on heating and cooling of the shop, but this would only apply to shops that really rely in climate control. Nieghbors are a consideration. I for one, don't want to explore what wood allergies my body could develope under certain conditions. Red Cedar makes me sneeze, so I am extra careful around it, and I hope that's as complicated as life gets. That said, I don't believe anyone is immune to lung damage caused by fine particles. It's not all about allergies. Check out the beginning chapters of Sandor's "Workshop Dust Control". Also, filters cost money and time in checking, cleaning and relplacing them. Brian
Brian,It may be possible for heating/AC in very mild climates or in spring and fall to keep up with the losses from a small D/C unit that is turned on only when a piece of equipment is also running. But it's been pretty much the consensus of most people here that most of the time, especially in winter or summer it's impossible to keep ahead of the air flow of a medium to large D/C.Industrial units may vent to the outside, but such operations also have industrial-strength heating and AC.Anyone who has ever struggled to keep a garage workshop tolerable in the winter by using space heaters can tell you that venting a D/C to the outside is the equivalent of leaving the garage door open in terms of heat loss.I would love to vent mine to the outside, it would solve problems that get dealt with otherwise, but the practical considerations in northern Florida are suffocating heat and humidity May-Nov and surprisingly cold conditions (down to 15 F overnight) Dec-Mar. The huge air volume that leaves the shop has to be replaced and it's outside air that does that.Rich
Yeah, I guess I'll just see how it is (venting to the outside) once my system is set up. This is all still theory in my case. I don't expect to stay ahead of the heating/cooling losses, but heat is free wood in a woodstove and cooling will be just a large ceiling fan for air movement. If I don't like it I can put a filter on and patch the hole in the wall, but I think I'm on the right track for my particular preferences and environment.Brian
Let us know the results.Rich
Yup, very true!I hauled my dust collector around the shop for the better part of two years.It was, in fact, hauling it around that convinced me to put in ducts.There were always flexible hoses everywhere, getting underfoot, and the dust collector was always hooked up to the wrong machine.Ducting was a screaming pain, but it was worth it.I don't miss hauling stuff around at all.In the end, I even made cuts without it, because I didn't want to bother "for one cut".That was the worst, and final straw. I had bought the dust collector, and I wasn't using it. That's what finally convinced me to hook up ducts.
Edited 9/10/2009 6:40 pm by Jammersix
Of course, just when you think I've got my workflow... Hmm... I wonder if I could squeeze in machine X in here and then there goes the rearranging again!
You have received a lot of suggestions about your upcoming decision on which dust collector system to buy. You are probably tired of reading a lot of them.:)
I started with a small Delta bagged unit in my basement shop. That quickly became a chore to move and as my tool inventory increased the unit proved to be too small. So I bought a Jet canister dust collector and ran some piping. That was better and did a better job of collecting the dust I was creating, but as the shop tools expanded it again was way too small.
I finally decided that the power tool procurement had reached it's max for my space and that I had to do something better to collect the dust from the machines that I have. I use virtually all of a 24 X 32 basement area for my shop and I have lots of fixed machinery.
I looked at many dust collector systems, cyclone and other, and picked the Oneida 2 1/2 hp Super Gorilla. It is an impressive machine. I have it set up in a corner of the shop on the 24' dimension and the ducting runs across to the far wall and down to the far end in the 32' dimension. Per Oneida's suggestions I started with 7" pipe to fit the intake on the cyclone for 10' or so and then stepped down to 6" for most of the runs. At the far end and all the side branches the pipe is 5", excepting the tablesaw which Oneida said run 6" all the way to the base of the saw. I added a 5" port to my Unisaw base and a 4" duct to the soon to be added overarm collector. All other machines step down to the standard 4" near the machine. All machines have closures that I open as each machine is used. My router table is at the extreme end of the run, about 50' away from the cyclone and I can stick a board to the router table top if I am cutting dado type cuts in the bottom of a piece of stock. I have virtually no dust in the shop and the cyclone is surprisingly quiet.
The machine is not the cheapest and the piping cost a bit but I am very happy I made the change to the cyclone. I do have some suggestions on where to buy piping and fitting to save some money if you are interested. No, I do not have any financial interest in any supplier. :)
Let me know if you need any additional info. This is not the only way to go, just what I found that worked for me.
Bruce
Edited 9/11/2009 10:12 am ET by Wingdoctor
Eireannach
It looks like people get a little touchy on this subject. I am fairly new to wood working and I decided to spend the extra money and get the clear-vue cyclone. so far I have been really happy with it! it keeps the machine im working on clean of dust. and the inside of the filter is clean. I've seen non cyclone collectors where the fillters get so cloged up of dust that they hardly have any suction anymore. Probably why some models offer a flapper inside to clean them. So all I know is the clear-vue might be on to somthing. Like I said my filter hardly has any dust in it.
I agree with Rich 200%... I had the same problem, invested in a clear vue system, and had fun building it. Used 6 inch PVC for main runs. Put the cyclone in an insulated cabinet to keep the noise down.
I do, however, also have a Jet hang-from-the-cieling filter as well. With both running there is ZERO dust.
Read up on Bill Pentz's site, and throw him a few bucks for the effort if you find value there. He's a great guy and responds to questions quickly.
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