I just had an interesting experience and would like to hear if anyone else can relate.
I recently bought a 6″ combo square because all I had was a 16″ and I had noticed in another discussion ( I think it was ‘tools I’m glad I bought’ or something) that several people were lovin’ the versatility of using a six inch.
Anyway I bought the same brand, as even though I’m sure many people have plenty of opinions on who makes the best combos, my brand probably is’nt considered “the best” but the price is right and I’ve never been disappointed with any of their products. Having said that….it is manufactured by Empire Level Mfg.Co.
So I get the darn thing home and it’s totally screwed up! The action on the sliding blade was so choppy and hung up it was immediately apparent that there must be a bur or a chip or something on the blade or the tension/guide screw.
Sure enough….there were several…..and a few other problems…like a visible seam running around the length of the screw and a protruding chunk of some garbage left over from a sloppy machine run.
Instead of taking it back to the dist. I wrote directly to them and did not ask for anything, but I did tell them that I often participate in rating tools in a very popular and well trafficked on line forum. Ha!
They wrote back to me today…..said “sorry” and asked if they could send me a new one directly from the plant.
duh!
anyone else?
Replies
buy a starett they are very acurate and smooth as silk!!!
Right on! Thanks!
I knew I had heard of that brand before but could not for the life of me remember the name.
rock on!
Watch Ebay for them. They come up often and sell for $60-$70 - about half the price of a new one (that is for a 12" with center guage and protractor guage).Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
FYI, I think that you wrote a letter shows a great amount of respect to the manufacturer - many many companies appreciate a well thought out response from a customer and see it as a way to improve their products or processes.I've often wanted to respond to a supplier about how unhappy I was with their prod/service but then decided that it wasn't worth my time to help them improve (in cases where I'm really ticked off).Other companies, however, I'm happy to tell them politely that they need to fix something (usually because I relly like their product/service).A recent example,I wrote a letter to AmericanAirlines because a gate attendent "jumped through hoops" to get me on a flight home - after I was sold a ticket without a seat. I generally like AA but I was really ticked by the system that "oversells" a flight, on the other hand, I was quite pleased by the efforts of the gate agent.I've also learned that being really nice and resonable to the person you are dealing with will pay back. No yelling or threats (which, in my younger days I tried and failed with).And if you feel stuck, ask the person you are dealing with, "What would you do if you were in my situation?" - often times you'll get great advice.Oh and another thing, never ever tick off Security or receptionists (Since I travel and go into companies, they are sometimes my only resource for getting around or finding people at my clients) Security and receptionists, like anyone, want to be treated with respect and if they feel at all insulted, will make you wait in the lobby forever :-)M.
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Did you know that Starrett is made in Athol Mass. by a bunch of Athols?All kidding aside, Starrett is the mark that others can only try to reach. When I worked at Pratt and Whitney Aircraft making high tech jet engines, there were more Starrett gauges around than all the other brands put together! A lot of Bridgeports too - wouldn't I like to get one of those!
Tele,
"Starrett is the mark that others can only hope to reach"
Not quite- we have Moore and Wright (spelling) and Mitituyo (?) and even Rabone Chesterman.
Any machinest can tell you that the person who named Athol, Mass. had a lisp! I have never been disappointed in Starrett tools. I bought a 12 inch combination square from Harbor Freight. It is so bad I don't use it. I have a 12" & 18" Starrett blade for my combination square and I thought I could use a cheap one for woodworking - WRONG. I have been tempted by the Lee Valley small square. I'll probably try it some day.
Starrett or Bridge Tools for layout work. Empire, in my experience, is really not that good. Unless you're framing houses!
Thanks, your point is well taken.
I do realize that Empire products actually are made primarily for a more general market consisting mostly of construction/framing which do not always call for the type of precision needed in laying out 'tight' woodwork.
The thing is, being a Graphic Artist I also have a selection of industry specific tools that are extremely accurate for mechanical drawing and whatnot.
I guess what I have in my layout arsenal are tools from dynamically opposite ends of the spectrum and I should take the advice that seems to be essentially unanimous. And seeing as how I've also been wanting a 4", I will most likely seek out a Starrett.
I'm also looking for a try square and was going to buy one of these small squares in the Lee Valley catalog but I'm looking at this precision double square on the same page and now I can't decide. A little help maybe?
Geesh! There are so many things I want to ask all of you about all sorts of related topics.I have received many many great tips and opinions and really do appreciate it.
without seeing, I can't tell. Lee Valley has an excellent reputation. That said, they also make a lot of products that look enticing but are not necessary in order to produce high quality work. It's just my opinion, but money spent on lumber is a better investment than an assortment of shiny, and rarely used, tools....
I'm glad you said that.....to some extent I also agree with the notion that much of the catalog is intentionally more visually enticing than anything else...as a matter of fact for one product it actually says (this is in the catalog description for their small try squares)"These squares can be used in places where a larger try square would be cumbersome.Equally important, they are just as nice to look at as they are to use...." Then it goes into the physical description.
Now I admit I think their stuff does indeed look super sweet and I am certainly not immune to wanting some slick looking tools....but indeed if the difference in cost is based on looks rather than the more relevant practical aspects it is money that could be better spent.
I have not yet purchased from Lee Valley, but I plan to.simply because as you mentioned they do have an outstanding rep. and I have read every last word in the catalog and get the sense that for the extra money one is actually getting higher quality as well as better looking tools. Guess I'll find out soon enough.
I know this much.....my table saw....is losing points real fast. It's nothing fancy at all...a 9" Craftsman bought at Sears for me by my father......so I'm happy to have it...but after tonight...I'm most certainly writing a letter tomorrow.
I know I'm super inexperienced but I know how to handle tools...and it seems EVERYTHING on this bandsaw that is essential to it's optimal performance is made out of cheap plastic......specifically the locking nobs used for raising and lowering the guide assembly and the locking nobs used to adjust and set the tilt....even the miter guide is all plastic except for the blade. SO.........if (and I did) one tightens a nob to lock the assembly in place and does so a little too tightly.....it cracks and evermore will not function properly.I could go on and on....but you get the picture.
Oh your gonna love Lee Valley and so is your credit card company. I can't seem to leave that place without buying something I didn't even go in there for. And yes their customer service is excellent.
Zen,
You won't be sorry - A 4" Starrett lives in my shop apron and is used every day; since I bought it several years ago, the 12" Starrett stays in the drawer most of the time.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask youself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
The Lee Valley 4" precision double square - have it, love it, use it all the time. The Starrett 4" is certainly nice looking but I have a hard time believing it's worth almost twice the price of the well-made Lee Valley version.
Others have warned you of the dangers lurking at Lee Valley. Heed their warning!!!
Damn! I was just at Lee Valley the other day looking at that double sqare and managed to convince myself I didn't need it.--- I feel my resolve weakening.
Edited 7/7/2005 4:27 pm ET by Walker1
Zen: I had a problem with a small (4") double square; I first bought a mid-priced one from a decent company (PEC) whose products are generally quite good. It wasn't terrible but it just didn't slide smoothly and looked a bit "ragged'' around the edges. I called the vendor (J&L Industrial), they gladly took it back and sent me a Starrett, I paid the difference and now have a small jewel of a tool. The moral of my story: Buy the best (new or used)and only cry once!! KDM
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Powermatic should take a lesson from them. I bought a 64A and had too many problems to list, including poor customer service ("what do you want me to do about it?"). Finally got someone higher up and they helped me out, but it was absurd what I went through. It pretty much soured me on PM.
I have been meaning to write a letter to corporate, and I'll probably add in that their reputation seems to be taking a beating in some online forums. Maybe then they will snap to. But I'll wait to hear of any other problems/corrections before buying another yellow machine.
Yeah I think the mention of my participation in a "very well trafficked on line forum" did get their attention. I did it very politely and subtly but made sure they knew that I intended on "discussing it" in a tool related forum.
My technique is usually to butter them up by going on about how I love and use and recommend a wide variety of the other products they manufacture,but that somehow I got a bunk tool this time around and "hope it is an isolated incident" and "just thought you'd like to know " and I never really ask for a replacement......because I normally think the worst of 'customer relations' and figure I'd be wasting my time asking.
Kill 'em with kindness 'eh?
I get alot of 'CHEEP' stuff..
My number one rule is... If I can't take it out of the 'wrapper' or 'box' and inspect it.. I do not buy it! Period!.. I find the department manager and ask...
I always have a good straight edge and some of my old percision metal working tools in my old clunker truck.. SO I can measure the 'angles' and whatever..
I love CHEAP that is OK!
Always glad to read your input.
I love going for the cheap stuff often. Not always....but quite a bit.
At a yard sale recently I paid two dollars for a box of children's toys. Just because I found one item in the box that I collect. Anyway when I went through the stuff in the box later, I found an almost complete set of children's carpentry toys......including a tiny little hammer that has a hardened plastic handle with a cast steel head on it. It's totally well balanced and I actually now use it quite often for brads and finishing nails as well as tapping the lids back on to quart sized paint cans.(which I use a lot) AND!! there was a cool little 6" wooden try square marked in inches as well as centimeters. One corner of the ruled "blade" also is cut with a radius. Like a rounded corner but obviously for a specific reason that I am unfamiliar with. Far as I can tell the little bugger is pretty accurate. Accurate enough for the time being anyway.I use it also quite a bit, especially on surfaces that I have to worry about scratching.
Anyway.....I like to make do with what I can afford....or for that matter invent.
Another great thing is to find uses for products other than what they were intended for. I found a tiny little battery operated mixer for the kitchen at a dollar store and use it religiously to mix and stir 8oz. and quart size paint.
Hey there Mr. Will George!
I thought you might get a kick out of this.
So....remember I bought a bogus defective 6"Combo Square made by Empire Level Co.? Then I wrote a polite complaint directly to them as opposed to the distributor that I actually purchased it from, and a lady at Empire wrote back assuring me it was an isolated incident and offered to send a replacement which I readily accepted of course.
So now.......I've been out of town for a couple of weeks and I get home to find not one....but two...count 'em...1-2! Brand new 6" Squares waiting for me. In separate packages, shipped on different dates (1 day apart), and packed (according to the packing slip ) by two different people.
Can't complain about that now can I? And indeed they are both in perfect working order.
The odd thing is though, that although they both are referenced by the same part number on the packaging, and one of them is identical to the original faulty tool....the other has some minor differences. For the better in my opinion. And I have no idea if they have changed the design recently or if one is somehow supposed to be for a different application?
The changes are that on the "new" version the graduated measurements are not just engraved, they are engraved and printed in black...which I really like. And the built in level, instead of being tinted yellow......the liquid is tinted blue.
Other than that......everything else appears to be the same...weird eh?
Starrett, Browne & Sharp, Mitutoyo -- top three mfg's.
E-bay, as was mentioned, might also take a look at your neighbourhood pawn shop, I've picked up a Starrett at mine.
New, on-line, might look at McFeely's or Fastenal.
Woodcraft offered their own label that they state meets GSA spec. No idea, never used one.
Old Craftsman combo squares are pretty good, former partner has several that hold up in comparison to my Starretts. Don't know if they sell them any more.
Regards,
Starrett, Browne & Sharp, Mitutoyo -- Leon-you are on the money listing these tools.
All 3 are excellent.
There are also quite a few companys that make these same tools, that are pretty darn accurate & good enough for most woodworking needs.woody/LUTHER
They're the machinists' tools of choice in this area.My cousin's dad Frank sold machine tools for FBS years ago, I decided Frank knew what he was talking about when I found that those were his preferred makes.The scales are easy to read also. Something that my 50+ eyeballs can deal with easily is a help.When my (very old) Stanley combo square I inherited from my dad developed legs, I looked at what Stanley had currently, was totally underwhelmed, and bought Starrett. Haven't regretted it at all.I'd still like to find whoever has my dad's square, though, and discuss it some day.Leon Jester
I'm surprised you didn't find it at that pawn shop!Maybe you just traded with the giy who lost the Starrett. ;-p"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
I'm surprised you didn't find it at that pawn shop!Gee I forgot about that...
When I first started working (just out of the Army)..
Pawn shop... A BIG wooden box of Brown-Sharp guages.. Everything you could think of..
Was about $500.00 then.. Just married and asked the father-in-law for the money.. You know.. "I'll pay you back someday"..Well, He bought them for himself! I was so pissed...Anyway.. A few days later... Mt wife said go look in the hall closet..THERE IT WAS!..Father-In-Law never told me he was going to take it to a place to have them inspected and Certified...God I loved that man.. I KNOW he never told me just to get my 'goat!'EDIT:: I NEVER got mad at him in my voice or mood.. Just my brain..
I just imagined what he spent for HER wedding!
Edited 7/26/2005 1:45 pm ET by Will George
Ditto on being underwhellmed by Stanley these days.
I think that both Stanley and Craftsman were "Once Upon a Time" and have since become "Never Will be Again".
My father swears by Craftsman tool (mostly power tools) but his are quite old. And I'll say it again because I'm still really miffed (<-----not sure if I just made up that word)that my Craftsman Band Saw is a heap of die cast monkey poop.
Craftsman power tools gave me a sour taste in my mouth when the 7¼ inch sidewinder the ex- bought me died -- the commutator literally exploded.Took it back, was told (1) It's out of warranty, we only guarantee electrical stuff for 30 days. This despite my telling them it had less than 30 hours of operational time. Whereupon I gave up, told the clerk to get it fixed, it needed a new motor. That's when I was told (2) We charge $25.00 for repair estimates. Told clerk I didn't want an estimate, wanted it repaired. "We still charge for estimates."Which resulted in a left-handed underhand toss into Sears' trash can and my telling the clerk I'd be buying a PC sidewinder, and btw, they guarantee theirs for 2 years. Haven't bought a Sears power tool since.Leon Jester
Add in Bridge City as good1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Add in Bridge City as good
**********I've seen their ads and read a few reviews. They do look good, seem to be well-made.I went in the other direction for marking tools, I prefer to scribe a line, but didn't like the scribers on the market. So I took a small block of something -- butternut likely, I had a bunch of scraps at the time -- bored a centre hole in one end, turned a comfortable hilt and then made a scriber from a 20d nail. Heated it to straw in a torch flame, quenched it in oil, then tempered it to red, let it cool, glued it into the hilt and ground a flat edge onto the end.Works great. When it dies, I'll make another one.Leon Jester
"Heated it to straw in a torch flame, quenched it in oil, then tempered it to red, let it cool,"I think you got that backward (like I did with the Declaration - Constitution refs!)... Heat to red, quench, then temper to straw and quench.
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
"Heated it to straw in a torch flame, quenched it in oil, then tempered it to red, let it cool,"I think you got that backward (like I did with the Declaration - Constitution refs!)... Heat to red, quench, then temper to straw and quench.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Ooops!Sure did, Tim. Thanks.Should have read "Heated it to bright red, quenched in oil, then tempered by heating to straw, let it cool."Sorry 'bout that, folks.Here's a quick reference to steel heat temps, although it's about blackpowder tooling, the temps hold for anything.http://members.aol.com/illinewek/faqs/drawsteel.htmIn case anyone wants to know, I use peanut oil, it's cheap, takes a fairly high heat. I usually harden and temper in oil heated to about 200°F. A bladesmith friend uses anything he can grab, usually crankcase oil. Note that this doesn't work for air-quenched type steels. (A-2; D-2)Leon Jester
Some steels are water-hardening (W-1 etc) and you don't need oil at all for them. Although oil can still be useful for thicker pieces - it cools the steel more slowly than water does, so less chance of cracking. Tempering is fun, it's neat to watch those colors run. One cool way to do it is to quench the working end of the piece, then let the heat from the other end travel back down to the quenched end until it's the right color, then quench the whole thing. Hardening and tempering with one heat. Don Weber showed us how to do this stuff in a workshop in Mendocino a few years ago, before he moved to Paint Lick, Kentucky. That guy knows how to do everything.
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
I use O-1, prefer to use oil in any event as it cuts down on the amount of scale I have to get rid of afterward.I may use A-2, D-2 or another air-hardened steel in the future, as my bladesmith friend has an electric furnace to heat treat.Leon Jester
Smoke & fire is better than steam, anyway! And you're right, the oil leaves a nicer surface."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
LV 4" double square, lovely tool TO USE, LOL (It does look nice, too).
Re the first mentioned square. My experience is similar to yours plus, over time, you will find that the shoulder/tang on the pinch bolt (uncertain about proper names) will wear to the point that the thing will no longer stay fixed. That pinch bolt is just pot metal. Plus, the real kicker, as was just demonstrated to me with respect to another person's square made by the same company, the thing ain't close to being square. (A seemingly good, and cheap, reference square is a CD case.)
As was said, buy quality and cry once.
I think every shop should have a 6" engineers square for setting up equipment and checking cuts. They are inexpensive, I have a couple from Rockler that were only about $10 and dead on accurate. I also have my Grandfathers Starrett and it isn't close to being square. Whenever you buy a square, it's best to take an accurate one with you or grab others off the shelf to check for squareness. I wouldn't buy a square without checking it. I'd recommend against squares that have wood, I have some expensive rosewood squares that started out square but aren't any more.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
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