I just completed a new curly maple table. The local woodworking store employee suggested an approach I had not heard of before. Before I try it (on scrap first) I would like to get some opinions.
I use aniline dyes. He suggested a light dye (I plan on using an amber honey maple) first, then a wash coat of shellac, then a second dye application ( I plan on using medium brown mahog), then the clear topcoats, which could also get some different color of Transtint added. He believes this will give me a shimmer/translucence/chatoyance that I could not get otherwise. His reasoning is that the shellac will have a refractive index which will accentuate the minor depth difference in the first two dye layers.
What are your reactions to this approach? Does it violate any fundamental laws of finishiong or physics? Will it give the result claimed? Have any of you done this? I am concerned because with the barrier coat (unsanded?) the second dye will not touch the wood, right?
Thx
Dan
Replies
I have heard of, and used the two applications of dye before, but the barrier coat is a new one, and I think your concern is well founded. The barrier coat wouldn't allow much if any change with the second dye application.
I now finish curly maple with just one coat of dye, since I found that the Trans Tint Dark Vintage maple produces a beautiful color in one application. The dying/sanding/dying approach worked well enough on flat work, but was problematic on shaped surfaces, although I would continue to use if it resulted in a better finish.
I think an application of a thick gel stain (glaze) after sealing the dye, can enhance a finish.
For a little more information on finishing curly maple see the following link.
http://americanfederalperiod.com/Chest%20on%20frame%205.html
Rob Millard
Rob,
You raise an issue I would like to get answered. If you apply 2 dye coats (2 different colors) sequentially, do you get the same result as if you simply mixed the 2 colors together and applied as one coat?
Dan
Na, like Rob said ,the second coat will act like a glaze over sealed wood and that only gets caught in corners and nicks and crannies to enhance the asethics. The word "enhance" is in the eye of the beholder. Your test pieces will tell you if ya like it.
Dan,
The idea behind the two applications of dye, of differing colors and or strength, is to enhance the curl. A darker or stronger dye is applied first, then after it has dried, the surface is sanded, removing most of the color in the more dense areas, where the dye did not penetrate as deep. Following this is a lighter/weaker dye to replace some of the color sanded away, but leaving the curls darker.
I finished the table shown in following link using this method.
http://americanfederalperiod.com/Curly%20Maple%20Side%20Table.html
I first dyed it with a concoction made from walnut husks, then I sanded the living daylights out of it, and applied a nice golden maple dye (Moser's honey maple, it think) Despite the fact that this is the ugliest table I have ever made, the color came out nice, but it still isn't as nice as the one application of the Dark Vintage Maple.
I never liked the sanding required, because it destroyed the hand planed texture and was difficult to do on moldings and other shaped surfaces.
Rob Millard
Rob,
Even your "ugly" (by your standards) pieces are beautiful !
I now understand the two-step rationale. Thanks. I am skipping a glazing step because this is for a flat table top. The table base is painted black. So there are no nooks and crannies for the glaze to hide in.
I have mixed a one-step concoction whose color I like. Part Solar Lux medium brown mahogany and part Solar Lux lemon yellow, with a couple ounces of Transtint honey amber thrown in. I would like it a little more amber so I plan on amber shellac on top. This is for a daily use table so I'm not sure about the shellac.
I assume the oil step enhances the grain/chatoyance, yes? What does heating the oil do for you?
Thx
Dan
Dan,
Heating the oil makes it penetrate deeper, and it also seems to make it polymerize a little better.
I just started using Ultima Spray Lacquer for table tops, and I highly recommend it; I wish I had used it sooner.
The table in the link was just over the line into gaudy; it was the rosewood crossbanding that did it. That's what happens when you make a piece from a black and white photo.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
The link is sure good advice. My wife hates the amber look. I'm doing a curly maple coffee table now and am using transparent water based. It does NOT pop the grain but the shhimmer is still there and the wife is happy.
Rob,I've heard of the approach you advocate before, and I've tried it with good results. I've never used the TransTints, however. How do you like them, and how would you compare them with other dyes?Thanks,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon,
Of the dyes I have used, the Trans Tints are the best. The color they produce are excellent and they can be blended into water, shellac, lacquer and some oils, making them pretty versatile.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com 
Thanks Rob. Sounds like you could do the dark TT dye for the curl, sand and then just blend shellac (with or without a TT dye) to get the overall color that you want.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Hi Dan,
I agree with Rob M., the shellac between coats of dye would simply block the second coat of dye from the wood. I have used the dye-sand-more dye method and really liked the results. I really like dye followed by a thin coat of boiled linseed oil (wipe the oil on and off in a very thin application) followed by shellac. The attached photo shows a curly maple table finished using this method.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
If the shellac coat is truly a wash coat--1 lb. cut or less, it won't seal the wood completely, but will only seal the harder "surface" areas but letting the dye penetrate more heavily into the "figure" area where the grain swirls to the surface. I think you would get more dramatic figure this way. It would allow the two step program (in this case light dye, then the dark) without having to destroy the hand planed surface. It would be tricky, since the effect would depend heavily on the cut of the shellac and how it is applied. You would want to wipe off excess dye from the second application from the surface to avoid having it picked up by the finish coats.
The first coat of dye doesn't seal the wood to any great extent. That's why the sequence Rob Millard used with the dark first, then sanding, and then the lighter dye. The effects of the dark and light are cumulative but after sanding the dark dye mostly remains in the figure, and the light dye over it isn't very noticable, but is noticeable on the sanded wood where it restores color.
Two coats of dye without sanding between will be mostly cumulative and be only a little different than mixing them before application.
Edited 3/11/2008 2:38 am ET by SteveSchoene
Bob - That is an outstanding color/finish and exactly the look I want. Do you have the recipe, i.e. which TT color and what was the cut for it. etc... Thanks -Yurij
Yurij,
It was several colors of water based dye from Lee Valley. I don't remember the exact "mix". I think it was some light yellow maple and some honey amber, and maybe some russet amber. Anyway, mixing is very easy and I would experiment to get what I wanted. Sorry I can't be of any more help.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
Bob - did you mix them all together and apply? did you put on the darkest amount first and then sand it so that only the curl grain was stained, then put a lighter mix on. then soak in some oil? something like that? thx -yurij
Yurij,
I mixed them together, testing on samples until I got the color I was looking for. I raised the grain with plain water and sanded back with about 600P. I then applied the dye and allowed it to dry over night. The next day I applied a light coat of boiled linseed oil, wiped as dry as I could get it. I then topped it with several coats of 2lb. cut shellac. Finally toped with paste wax.
Bob
Bob - That is interesting. it looked like you "poped" the grain using the "apply darker dye, sand to remove most of it, apply lighter dye" and then oil, ... technique (Jeff Jewitt?). this was a one shot "dye" deal and it came out so nice. Thanks for sharing -Yurij
Dan, dye AFTER a barrier coat is risky, IMO. Whatever differences in thickness of the barrier coat and going to manifest as differences in color absorption.
I agree, but the key is not to apply a "barrier coat" but a very light cut shellac wash coat. Experimentation to see how it works for you and the way you apply the wash coat, etc. is important.
Yeah, I could see it ........ if it's a light coat, and if you were to lightly rub or sand it out to make certain it was patterned or uniform.
Yep.
Dear systembuilder:
Check out this video from FineWoodworking.Com. It shows James Condino, a luthier from Asheville, N.C., creating a dynamite sunburst finish on curly maple, using a combination of several dyes followed by light wash coats of shellac. I shot the video and it was nothing short of amazing to see the wood's figure and grain pop with ever-greater clarity as James worked in the dyes.
Good luck with your project,
David Heim
Managing Editor
FineWoodworking.Com
For what it's worth, this is the last curly maple top I did, about 6 months ago. I'm trying to surpass this for grain-popping effect.
Dan
I just put on the first layer of dye, a medium-dark mix of solar lux and transtint. I am going to sand then put on a layer of light amber. Two questions:
1) same grit as I last used? or one grit finer?
2) can the second dye be water based (Transfast) if I used alcohol based NGR first layer?
Thx
Dan
The top is very outspoken... but there is a different approach to consider. For small items such as jewelry boxes and picture frames, really popping the curl makes a statement. For larger pieces, such as casework and table tops, a more subtle, three dimensional, almost iridescent effect is, to my eye, more pleasing. If you've looked at 18th C tiger maple furniture from New England, the figure of the maple has a depth and complexity, without being overwhelming. Degustibus non disputandum est...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Dan,
Attached is a photo that better shows the color from a single application of the Dark Vintage Maple. What this photo and no photo can show, is the depth and "movement" in the wood; it has an unbelievable three D look. I did not get this same depth with the dye/sand/dye approach. This is one instance where the quick method produced better results.
I think this dye achieves the prefect balance between accentuating the curl, without being overbearing. Of course the dye is only 1/3 of the equation, the other important parts are the grain pattern itself, and the deeply penetrating oil; the "lens" through which you see the grain.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
What I'm talkin' about...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Rob,
That dark vintage maple color is beautiful. The color of your piece matches the Trans Tint swatch on their web site exactly. I bought some a while back because I thought it was a knockout color - but what I ended up with looks more like Grey Poupon mustard.
So - 2 questions:
Do you remember what ratio you mixed the dye?
What type of oil did you use?
Was the top coat shellac and if so was it amber, garnet, etc?
(OK - that was 3 questions ;)
Thanks,
Lee
View Image
I don't know the exact dye to water ratio, but it was a pretty weak mixture, because the "dark" in dark vintage maple made me nervous.
I'm using boiled linseed oil with the name brand, Zip Strip. My Dad bought 3 or 4 gallons of this on close out where he worked; I'm guessing this was 11 years ago. I think any boiled would work just as well. I added a little bit of Japan drier to the oil and applied the mixture hot. After the oil had cured, I applied a dark brown gel stain as a glaze and followed that with 3 brushed on coats of super blond shellac.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
I don't know the exact dye to water ratio, but it was a pretty weak mixture, because the "dark" in dark vintage maple made me nervous.
Ahhh! I mixed it a little strong. From trans tint:
"A lovely, rich caramel color when used in strong mixes (1 oz. to 1 pint). When diluted more, a good color for pine, oaks and lighter woods."
I will try diluting what I have and see if that looks better. Thanks for the advice.
Cheers,
Lee
Rob,
I just bought Trans Tint in the Dark Vintage Maple. I'll try it on some maple scraps for a future piece. Thx for the suggestion.
Question for you - my current project, a table top, now has completed the dye/sand/dye method and has gone through the boiled linseed oil step. The top, 39 by 72 inches, soaked in half a gallon of oil! Is this normal? Nothing was left puddling on the top.
My next step will be shellac, then some other topcoat finish. My issue is that the top is a little darker than I like. Maybe the oil darkened it. If I mix in a dilute amber/yellow dye into the shellac will it brighten the color, or does this violate the laws of physics? In other words, if a dyed piece is too dark, can a topcoat lighten it?
Thx
Dan
My experience is that unfinished (dry) wood is fairly thirsty, and can take in a fair amount of BLO.I would expect maple will lighten (and yellow) a little as time goes by- it generally looks darkest right after the BLO. How much and whether it is enough for your taste could vary...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Dry wood can be like a sponge, so I don't think that was excessive.
I wish I could help on the darkness issue, but that is something I have not done before.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
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