Replies

1. 
   ring | Nov 22, 2008 09:10am | #1

   Kreuzie,

   I don't believe that the edging separates because of seasonal movement. It separates because moisture from the countertop gets into the joint, the particle board swells, etc. The way to do it is:

   First glue your hickory edgebanding to the substrate. (BTW I never use particle board, only ply). Sand or plane it flush, then glue the HPL over everything. Use a router bit to trim it back and give a profile to the edge. It is common to use a quarter-round bit for this, but you can use anything you please. The important thing is to leave some of the HPL glued over the joint, effectively sealing it against moisture ever entering.

   David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e

1. 
   kreuzie | Nov 26, 2008 05:30am | #7

   Ring --

   The top I mentioned was on a cabinet in an office...about fifty feet from the nearest water source...a drinking fountain.

   What specific plywood do you use? Like other posters, I'm a little leery of fir plywood.

   Would you consider MDO as a substrate? My longest top will be 12 feet long.

   Would biscuits and waterproof glue be OK to join  24" x 96" and 24" x 48" pieces to make a 24" x 144" piece? I could then run the whole thing through my 26" double drum sander to eliminate any slight difference between the two pieces where they join.

   Do you use solvent or water-base contact cement? One coat or two?

   Any other specifics you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

   kreuzie

   Edited 11/25/2008 9:33 pm ET by kreuzie

1. 
   ring | Nov 26, 2008 05:01pm | #10

   Kreuzie,I don't have much variety of plywood to choose from, so I can't advise you on that. I use Baltic Birch because it's my only alternative to Chinese garbage.Gluing the pieces together as you suggest is fine, but my first question is: do you have a piece of laminate 12' long? If not, you need to resolve how to do that joint first. You just might need to introduce a design element (strip of hickory?) to make the transitions.And you'll need to temporarily brace the whole 12' counter from underneath until it's on site and ready to be attached. No matter how you glue the parts together, you've got to keep the whole thing rigid for transport. I like the idea of screwing two 2x4's underneath the counter and running it through the drum sander before gluing down the HPL.I use solvent-based contact. Most applications need 1 coat on each part. If you've got a helper, you're gonna want him to help you spread glue on this 12' counter. I like a fine-toothed spreader because it makes the work go much quicker and more evenly. Edgebanding on plywood (not relevant to this job) I would recommend 2 coats. Personally I've got an edgebander in the shop so I don't do edges by hand anymore, but once upon a time...David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e

1. 
   kreuzie | Nov 26, 2008 09:01pm | #11

   Ring--

   Laminate in 24" or 30" x 12 feet is available. For large jobs, I use a special 9" roller cover designed for adhesives. Slip it on a paint roller frame, and you're good to go. You can spread adhesive at the same rate you can paint a wall.

   After the adhesive on the roller cover dries completely, the cover can be reused many times.

   kreuzie

    

1. 
   ring | Nov 27, 2008 12:31pm | #13

   Where'd you get the roller cover?David Ring

   http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e

2. 
   kreuzie | Nov 27, 2008 05:47pm | #15

   I just checked in my shop. I have 2: one is a 7'", made by Bestt Liebco- it's a tru-pro 7" 895007 Frieze 7V95; the other is a 9" Napless Spreader Roller, #5000, "for applying all viscous products on horizontal surfaces", made by Linzer Products.

   I get mine where I buy plywood and laminate. These two companies have websites, but don't list any specific places to purchase their covers. You might "contact" them to find a source. Let me know if you cannot find one; I will send you one to try.

   kreuzie

2. 
   hammer1 | Nov 22, 2008 05:21pm | #2

   Typically, a rabbet is used, 3/8" x 3/8", groove cut in the edging. I used to make those wood edged laminate tables you see in so many restaurants. Use a waterproof glue.

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

3. 
   oldusty | Nov 22, 2008 05:51pm | #3

     K ,

             Absolutely fasten the wood edge before you lay down the laminate as Ring has said it covers the seam and prevents separation as well as moisture or anything from getting in between .

                 dusty

4. 
   jako17 | Nov 23, 2008 12:48pm | #4

   Hi kreuzie,  I suggest using fir ply as a substrate rather than particle board.On all custom counters we have to  make we have long since given up on particle board.I know of 2 kitchens that have hard use where the laminate is wearing but the edging and bond (solvent contact,double coated) is still good after 17 and 20 years.Both of these have a butt joint between the edging and the counter(not as david suggests overlay the laminate and rout through.) Both on fir ply with biscuited and pva glue.A bit off topic but we wipe a.b.s glue round all penetrations for sink ,taps etc.to ensure against water penetration at these points. Jako 

1. 
   oldusty | Nov 25, 2008 07:38pm | #5

      In all honesty the Fir plywood that was made 20 years ago was a different animal than what is made today , don't you think ?

       The product changed over the years mostly the core integrity and the thinner veneer skins .

          I've used plywood when only covering one side on folding display fixtures , seemed the plywood will warp less then the PB when not fastened down .

             dusty , from the land of a few plywood mills

1. 
   jako17 | Nov 26, 2008 04:34am | #6

   I am not sure but I believe that U.S and Canadian fir ply have different specs as to voids /plys etc.The last lot was MDO and had 7 plys all the same thicknness.On some the plys were differing thickness depending on orientation.I believe the good stuff was U.S but can not be sure.By the way that disgusting chinaply is not part of this discussion.It behaves more like green spruce in a hot,dry basement during winter!!!A bit off topic but I am  visiting the UK and they seem to have 19mm luan ( or something that looks like it) for what I pay for poplar B/BB.

2. 
   kreuzie | Nov 26, 2008 05:39am | #8

   Good tip on applying ABS glue to the raw edges of countertop cutouts. Does it have to be ABS glue, or will a multipurpose glue (PVC) work also?

   kreuzie

1. 
   jako17 | Nov 26, 2008 01:44pm | #9

   We use ABS glue or solvent contact as both are around .We prefer to cut the openings to ensure the edges are sealed.By the way' to extend the sheets we put a 2ft scab under the joint screwed and glued as well as biscuits.Make sure that the laminate joint is 12-16 inches offset.We then just belt sand the joint lightly and nothing telegraphs.Another point use general purpose  grade laminate as it is thicker than other grades and comes in 12 by 5 's (might help reduce the joints) Stay in contact so to speak !! <G> Jako

1. 
   kreuzie | Nov 27, 2008 06:17am | #12

   How wide do you make the scab under the joint, assuming the joint is centered over the base cabinet below it and not next to the base cabinet side?

   My plywood source tells me they have 3/4" 4' x 10' fir for $70 a sheet...just enough to do the 20 total feet of tops in my kitchen.

   I plan to use Pionite AV781 Suede in Sage Coral color. Is this the grade of laminate you're referring to? It's available in 30" (and maybe 24") x 12 foot sheets.

   kreuzie

    

    

1. 
   zolton | Nov 27, 2008 05:00pm | #14

   I'm not sure I'd use fir plywood as a substrate for countertops. I've made a lot of countertops over the years with particle board and have had the chance to revisit some of them 15-20 years later. They're still holding up just fine.

   Particle board is flat, smooth, heavy and cheap. The fir plywood I've seen is neither flat not smooth. Laminate needs to lay on a smooth and flat surface. I'd be concerned about the fir bowing up under the laminate.

   As Ring said, the best way to deal with the edge banding/laminate joint is to apply the edge banding first, then laminate over it, then rout the edge. Again, this is a very long lasting joint, though I have had to go back and file the laminate edge on some countertops when the edge banding shrank. That was the result of working in new homes, where there is a lot of moisture in the air from curing concrete, paint, framing and drywall. Once all that stuff gives off its moisture, some wood items can shrink...

   ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon