…Or other traditional wood carvers of similar expertise…
Hi Lee,
In a nutshell, why are straight carving chisels beveled on both sides? What value or capabilty is added?
Background is this: I have been working through Chris Pye’s “Lettercarving in Wood,” doing incised Trajan Roman style letter carving and I have been following his suggestions regarding tools with the exception of the larger straight chisels (40mm, 50mm, etc) for carving the stems (long, usually vertical straight trenches) of larger lettters. For one thing, carving tools are pretty expensive when that big and I don’t know when I’d ever use them for any other purpose – so I’ve been using Stanley “Fat Max” bevel edge bench chisels ($11 to $16 at Lowe’s) in the 1 1/2″ and 2″ sizes to do the stems of larger letters. I even cut off the plastic handles and made some decent new ones outta dogwood. I got the flat faces of them so shiny and the edges so sharp that I’m afraid to show a picture for fear someone will zoom in too far and start splitting pixels on their monitor. They seem like rockin’ good letter carving chisels for doing incised letters with big stems,…
So,…why are straight carving chisels bevelled on two sides? What does that gain you? What gain is there in other work?
Thanks, Ed
Replies
"Or other traditional wood carvers of similar expertise"
Hi Ed,
Like who? Grinling Gibbons? Perhaps Chris Pye or Nora Hall?
I'm not in Lee's league by any stretch of the imagination, but my understanding is that double bevels/bezels and semi-rounded knife-life profiles allow the carver to "swim" the chisel in and out of the woodgrain, whereas bench chisels, with their perfectly flat backs, allow you to "submerge" but make "coming to the surface" a challenging prospect.
At least that's how it has worked out for me!
Lee is the resident EXPERT on micro bezels and carving tool geometry, by the way!
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
I've often pondered the same question, and like you have used regular carpenters' chisels for straight carving. I think I have enough experience with letter carving to offer an opinion.
The standard carvers' chisel works the same way which ever way you turn it, thus is only one tool. The chisel with bevel on one side only works as two different tools, depending on how you hold it. Two for the price of one!
Practitioners of ancient arts like carving seem to take a religious attitude toward their art. THIS IS THE WAY WE DO IT BECAUSE THIS IS THE WAY WE DO IT.
Tom
"Practitioners of ancient arts like carving seem to take a religious attitude toward their art."
A famous sculptor, at an exhibition of his work, was approached by a fan who gushed
"How did you make this bust look so lifelike?"
His answer? --- "I just chopped off all the bits that didn't look like him"
The finished result is the 'Art', not the method of getting there. Would 'David' be less incredible if Michaelangelo had used air-chisels?
IanDG
Practitioners of ancient arts ....
Geeee Must be why I like my old Gent Jack Daniels at night!
EDIT: I TRY to carve.. But alass I look like a #### doin' it!
Edited 6/7/2005 3:32 pm ET by Will George
Good question, Ed.
Let me start by saying that my bench chisels which are the bevelled variety with flat backs frequently find their way to my carving bench. With very few exceptions all carving tools are honed on both faces. The only exceptions are speciality gouges some chair makers and boat builders use.
Straight gouges (Yup, in carving lingo they are still called gouges, #1 sweeps) are bevelled on both faces for reasons of clearance. In carving there is no advantage to having a flat backed chisel. The flat areas are usually inaccessible with the flat face down which is the only way a flat backed chisel can cut from that face. So, a flat chisel (#1 gouge) with a grind on one side and microbevels on both faces will present two very different angles of attack, the ground side much steeper than the other. Again, it's just a matter of clearance.
There is an advantage to having these two angles of attack but you are certainly able to carve as well with a flat chisel as with a #1 gouge when clearance is not a factor. Use your Stanleys and save your bucks. I have 4 or 5 #1 gouges that I use because of ease but many times a bevelled chisel would work as well. Since the flat face of a bench chisel is nearly useless for carving it is abandoned for carving tools in favor of the greater versatility two attack angles give us.
Jazzdog has the purpose for microbevels correct and rather unique imagery to go along with it. Control of depth is the reason.
Tom, show me some of your work. I'd like to see the results of your new and improved take on how carving tools are prepared for use. I'd hate to think of how limited I am by following the advice of thousands of years of carvers. After all, they might have missed something.
Lee
Please note that the question at hand related only to letter carving, not to sculpture. I would send some photos if I knew how to do it.
Tom
These forums are really good if for no other reason they make us formulate our answers and congeal what we know into transferable information. After rattling out my earlier answer I went out to the workshop where I'm in the middle of a carving project. After sitting at the bench for only moments I have a much better answer for you.
It's more workman-like. Ta-Dah...
All of my carving tools are ground on one face and have microbevels on both faces. When I pick up any gouge or v-tool or skew I can use it without hunting for the sweet spot. The sweet spot is the point at which the fulcrum and cutting edge are pointed in the direction I wish to cut. The fulcrum is the point where the microbezel and the rest of the tool intersect. So immediately finding this sweet spot makes a carver's work go better.
A bench chisel has a different feel. The sweet spot is at a different angle and there is no sweet spot on the flat face.
You can accomplish much with a bench chisel but guys like Chris Pye and Ian Agrell and others teaching this craft expect you to take carving more seriously and if you choose to take it more seriously it's easier to use tools that are uniform in feel and action.
Like most of woodworking any given task can be accomplished in any number of ways, some more efficient or better than others. The more you are faced with a given task the better equipped you want to be to make the results easier to obtain. Carvers prefer their tools to be similar to one another for this reason, it's more workman-like.
Don't rush out and buy a set of #1 gouges. While it may be the best way to work these letters it certainly is not the only way. If you get more serious about it, serious enough to invest in the speciality tools to make it a bit easier buy the flat gouges then.
Lee
Thanks, Lee, All - Makes sense and I've got a much fuller picture of this question and answer, now.To any: I would highly recommend this book (Chris Pye, "Lettercarving in Wood, A Practical Course," Fox Chapel Publishing, 2003) for anyone wishing to add this component to their work. It is extremely detailed and completely covers the fundamentals. Maybe even too much so, for one afflicted with "Woodworking ADHD" and as desirous of quick results as I ("Wow! "G" is cool! I'm jumping two chapters while I'm on a roll and going after "S" ! Throttle down, full speed ahead!")...So I've had to do a lot of backtracking and revisiting fundamentals. But it's a good book.
As luck would have it, all of my grandkids have names that only require straight cuts... well, there is that one "C".
Ed, I have not done a lot of lettering, but have been carving since the sixties. The last lettering that I did was for the name-board for the yacht that I was captain of at the time.
I found the most useful of my carving tools was the carving skew.
Ed and Lee,
Excellent thread. I made a bookshelf in walnut once and made parchment fold end panels for decoration consistent with the theme of books/reading. It was great fun, much easier than anticipated and left me with a hightened sense of accomplishment one gets with handwork. Truly a blast!
Somewhat off-topic, but where does one shop for in-canel gouges? (or is it out-canel??) Or does the carver simply use the size appropriate for the curved shape and sharpen with the primary bevel on the gouge's outside and micro-bevel on the inside. Poor explanation on my part, but the desired effect is to come down cleanly from the top and undercut the edges of the leaves a bit so they appear more realistic, resting on the field rather than being so obviously a part of it. Making any sense?
Thanks,
Greg
Hi Greg, I just noticed your message. An out cannel gouge is ground on the outside of the tool, an in cannel is ground on the inside. An in cannel gouge is very much a speciaity tool and is rarley seen outside a joiners or chairmaker's shop.A properly sharpened gouge used for carving will have microbezels on both faces. Microbezels are crucial to the way a tool cuts. A carving gouge without microbezels on both faces is not properly sharpened. Once you have microbezels on both faces undercutting is a simple matter, just select the proper gouge and cut away, the microbezel determines thwe angle of attack. Put a microbevel on both faces of all of your carving tools, you need both faces when carving.I have spewed forth on this topic ad nauseam and a search will turn up many posts on the topic.LeeMontanaFest
Got it, Lee.
I thought it boardered on being a dumb question, but remembered that old Chinese maxim that one who asks a question is a fool for five minutes, but the one who doesn't ask remains a fool forever....
The main point was that it was a real pleasure trying my hand at carving a little detail in a piece of furniture.
Thanks a lot.
Cheers,
Greg
Greg, it was not a dumb question at all. Some sellers and manufacturers now advertize their tools as "ready to use" with only a primary grind. A very sharp edge can be produced and they do arrive quite sharp. However, they are not ready to use as carving tools, merely paring knives. I know that many are taking this sales pitch as truth so many struggle with carving tools that lack the proper shape to work well.LeeMontanaFest
Thanks, Lee.You've just explained -- over several posts -- why my few attempts at carving have been less-than-successful.Now to find the vee-tools and gouges and sharpen them with microbevels on both sides. Hmm. Last time I saw the vee tool it was covered in blood and I was swearing ...Leon Jester
I'm happy to help..., give it a go again Leon and others.LeeMontanaFest
Lee, I just stumbled across your egg and dart article in the tips and techniques.I was just wondering if you have any skew gouges? I have a couple of R & L hand that I made with about a #7 sweep that would have been my first tool of choice for much of what you were demonstrating. I don't know if there are any tools like this on the market or not, but the R & L makes for a nice shearing cut that will get into tighter corners, and always with the grain.
Rootburl, I do have skewed gouges but they are very much speciality tools only brought out when needed. To carve productively I limit the numbers on the bench. 90% of all the carving I do can be accomplished with a dozen tools or so, 98% with two dozen. The egg and dart article was part of a printed article published years ago and that article included two other mouldings, bead and rod and one of my own design, bead and cowl. All were done with only three gouges which was the primary objective, to offer a path into carving without buying hundreds of dollars worth of tools.As to the usefulness of a skew gouge, it's an unneccessary tool for this work. A straight gouge is always the best tool when it works, it's stronger thus more of a workhorse. Next would come any of the tapered gouges including fishtails but the shank limits the usefulness of these tools, they are not as strong and stiff. I find no need for anything other than a straight gouge for this work (egg and dart) and in the interest of speed and efficiency I pass on the speciality tools and only use them when they are truly needed. I have over a hundred carving tools and it's sheer absurdity to have many more than a dozen on the bench at ony one time.But, if it works for you that's all that is important. For me expediancy is vital because I do this professionally and I have to carve quickly. To that end I use the tool at hand. ####straight gouge in skilled hands can do a great deal.LeeMontanaFest
I've been thinking further on this matter. I agree with you, and regularly use a flat -backed bench chisel for the straight parts of classic Roman capitals. This is basically a paring cut, for which a paring chisel can't be beat. In sculpting procedures the flat -backed chisel does very well on elevated convex surfaces. The reason can be seen with a simple vector analysis. All of the force applied to the tool is in a direct line with the direction of the cut. With a bi-beveled chisel the handle is raised until little more than of the force is applied in the direction of the cut.
While I'm at it, I should share an idea that for me works well on curved parts of letters. I've taken a few old odd flat chisels and ground them with round noses of differing radii. These chisels can slide around the inside of an incised curve wonderfully.
Tom
If that technique works, then good on ya. Maybe others will comment. As for carving, I'm more of a question-asker than an opinion-giver, due to lack of a lot of practical experience. Take care and good luck! Ed
Just to add a quick 2 cents.
I was carving a few signs and needed a bunch of smaller chisels for the finer lettering.
Instead of rushing out to buy a bunch of $40 carving chisels, I got a couple of HCS Spade bits at a dollar store and a couple of hardened steel pin punches from Sears.
10 minutes at the grinder, 15 more at the stones, and about 15 more to turn a couple of handles- Voila: 1/16"; 1/8"; 1/4"; 3/8" and 1/2" straight chisels for lettering.
Yikes!Aren't you afraid to reach into that cactus for a tool?LeeMontanaFest
you'll note I didn't post a picture of my fingers......
Actully its not as bad as it looks. A hinged 2x6 that I can open to however I like.The older I get, the better I was....
Well, I can certainly see why "nick" is part of your name.LeeMontanaFest
Pap, I like your set-up, but it would never work for me. You see, I do lots of my carving sitting straddle of an old carped carpenters bench that I have been using about 30 years ago. I use a chinese vice to hold the work, that is I'm holding the work between my knees. I would end up leaving it on this low bench, and then end up sitting on it.
Papa Nick,I read somewhere, maybe "Woodsmith" or "Shop Notes," that spade bits are excellent for that purpose. I've got one ground into the shape of a marking knife but haven't made the handle, yet. I don't have a lathe so I'm a spokeshave-rasp-carving tool-sandpaper kind of guy for making handles. Take care, Ed
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