Hi
Over the years I have been saving small pieces of hardwoods and now want to glue them up to make bread/cutting boards.
I have the following types of woods. maple, mahogany, cherry, oak, walnut(black), ash, beech, bubinga, and some kind of green wood.
My questions are. Which of the above mentionned species are good for boards.( I want to make boards that contain 4 or 5 types of wood) and should I use a special glue to assemble. I was planning on finishing with Danish oil.
Thanks
Roger
Replies
Avoid using walnut - I believe it is food toxic. Oak and Ash are very open grained - unless sealed, they would probably be prone to catching food/bacteria. Maple and Cherry are good, don't know what the green wood might be - if it's poplar, it's too soft. Process of elimination leaves you with ______. Cheers.
Walnut can be toxic, but I've seen it used enough in bread and cutting boards I think it would be ok. I'm pretty sure I even saw David Marks use it in a butcher block, so you can sue him when someone falls ill of walnut-itis. Maple and Cherry both work great, and I agree open grained woods like Oak and Mahogany probably aren't the best choice.
http://www.djmarks.com/woodworks/506.asp
Edited 11/11/2005 3:40 pm ET by Bepperb
Hard maple is the classic, but others will work just fine. You can get really creative with the contrasting woods to break up the maple. Walnut is excellent for that. I have used a quite a bit of walnut in my boards and have lived to tell the tale.
Dave
If you want these bread boards to be food safe try using some salad bowl oil, I've finished some kitchen items with olive oil too. Some oils, like tung oil are poisonous! I vote for maple with high lights of cherry.
Wouldn't BLO (boiled linseed oil) be the oil of choice for a cutting board. It's my understanding that some salad oils can become rancid over time. I'm not certain, which is why I'm raising the question here. I thought I read that on a post here about cutting boards a while back.
Jeff
The most used finish and the finish of choice is mineral oil or a combination of mineral oil and paraffin. The latter is what is used on most commercially made boards and on real butcher's chopping blocks.
Vegetable oils will eventually turn rancid. Salad Bowl Finish is just another way of saying oil/varnish like Watco.
The MSDS for the pure, 100% tung oil that I have contains the following quote: " Raw tung oil is not a hazardous material under current dept of labor definitions. " As far as I know, it is not poisonous.Howie.........
Some people have nut allergies, so there is some concern about the possibility of walnut wood in a cutting board causing a reaction. My wife is allergic to walnuts but hasn't had any problems with the black walnut in our cutting boards, or the walnut oil that we use to finish the wood (walnut oil won't go rancid). The other woods I used are cherry and apple - all of which I've been hauling around for the last 25 years since I cut and milled the wood. Bout time I did something with it - LOL!
Howard
Is BLO a bad choice for cutting boards and butcher's blocks, or is it a viable alternative to mineral oil? In 20 plus years of woodworking, I've never made anything coming into contact with food, so I'm curious if what I read before was accurate or not. Thanks.
Jeff
My wife actually just asked me if I'd make her a cutting board the other day. She saw my scrap pile in the shop, and a light went on for the honey-do list.
The problem with boiled linseed oil is the long lingering odor which some feels gets imparted to the food. Some will also become concerned with the metal driers used in "boiled" linseed oil. But, they are so minute that the government considers them as non-toxic.
You can avoid all the issues, including nut allergies, by using mineral oil which is totally non-toxic and odor free. That's why it's the treatment of choice.
All interior finishes are non-toxic when fully cured
Howie.........
Howard,
I have mineral oil that I purchased at the drug store some time ago. Can this be used for a finish or is there a mineral oil specifically for wood finishing.
Thanks,
Chuck
Mineral oil is mineral oil whether you get it at the drug store, supermarket or get one of the cutting board oils. If it's mineral oil, it's good to use.Howie.........
There are two kinds of boards, the kind you display and the kind you use. If it's just for show any finish will be fine. If you are going to use it my favorite finish is no finish at all. No safety issues, no allergy issues, no maintenance issues.
If you are going to use it my favorite finish is no finish at all.
Yup. if you use it as a cutting board, it'll have so many knife gouges on it, the finish doesn't matter.
On the other hand, if it's for display or as a countertop, just about any interior finish is OK.
Thanks for the reply.
Chuck
As stated, mineral oil is mineral oil. Some manuafctures make "cutting board oil" but if you look at the ingrediants - it is mineral oil. There are some people who use a mix of mineral oil and parrafin for the finish, but I don't feel it makes any differance and just takes longer to make and use.
I have had discussions both here and in Knots (the woodworking forum ) on cutting boards. I have just compiled all my info into one document. For those interested here it is:
CUTTING BOARD INFO<!----><!----><!---->
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There are 3 methods of making a cutting board and only 2 are worthwhile in my opinion.<!----><!---->
1. Edge joint - face up board. usually boards 2"-3" wide edge glued. In my mind, this is the weakest board and CAN POSSIBLY result in the board warping after repeated washings. These boards are USUALLY not more than 3/4" thick.
2. Face Glued - edge up board. This is a fairly easy to make board. Rip the wood into strips equal to the thickness you want the board to be (best boards are 1 1/2" - 2" thick), using 4/4 boards that have been jointed and planed. then glue the boards together face to face to get the size of the board desired.
3 End Grain boards - the best quality boards are these. Start by making up a board as in #2 above, with the 1 1/2" wide strips, then when dry, crosscut the board into strips equal to the desired thickness of the final board (again 1 1/2" - 2" for a cutting board, if making a chopping block look at 3"-4" thick) then glue it up again with the end grain up. Best results are obtained where the joints are staggered from one row to the next)
Face joint and edge jointed boards will dull a knife easier than an end grain board
Think of the wood fibers like a bundle of straws. if the straws are laying on the counter, that would be edge joint and face joint. If you have the straws bundled up and standing up, that is end joint. When you cut into end joint, the wood fibers have a resiliency that lets them move aside a bit as the knife comes down and come back together when the knife goes up, so it is a softer surface for the edge of the knife. On Face and Edge grain, unless you are cutting parallel to the grain ( and most boards are NOT made that way ), you are cutting across the bundle. This is an over simplification but gives you a general idea of wood composition.
My feeling is that if it gets a bit messed up after a couple of years from cutting, you can run it thru a planer, removing 1/16th inch and get it back to like new.
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Maple and walnut are the 2 that are most used together in cutting boards. Also, stay away from woods with large pores, such as Oak - they can trap and harbor bacteria.
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Choosing a cutting board<!----><!---->
Rock or Hard maple is the best choice for a cutting board. Stay away from woods with large pores, such as Oak - they can trap and harbor bacteria.
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Something to look at when buying a cutting board ( I just noticed this at a kitchen supply store). Be wary if it says it is made of hardwood, or anything other than naming the specific type of wood. This could mean that it was made of any of a number of hardwoods or a combination of differant woods. Hardwood is a broad classification and does not really mean the wood is harder than others. There are some hardwoods that are real soft and some softwoods that are harder than many hardwoods.
ONLY buy a cutting board that specifies the wood or woods used in its construction.
and beware with maple that it specifies type of maple. There is a soft and a hard maple. Hard maple is what you want. It is also called Rock Maple.
Avoid a bamboo cutting board - it is harder on the edges of knives than a good Maple one. . Bamboo is great for utensils but not cutting boards
As a picky point – an edge jointed cutting board is what most people refer to as Butcher Block, when in reality a true butcher block is an end grain board usually quite thick.
FINISH on a Board.<!----><!---->
As to the finish on a cutting board, ANY finish is food safe when fully cured. HOWEVER, you can damage the finish real easily and get small bits in the food if you use something like polyurethane, varnish or shellac. And Most of these finishes are on the surface and when chipped expose unprotected wood to moisture and possible damage.
The best and most recommended finish is mineral oil. Never use a vegetable oil as it can go rancid after a while. Some people use a mineral oil & paraffin mix. To make the mix, Mix the parafin into the oil in shavings and heat up till the wax is melted and then let cool to a temp you can handle and coat and buff out. Some people use this other don't.
I am not convinced that that is really any better than straight mineral oil though. I prefer just mineral oil.
Finishing a cutting board - rub in a number of coats of mineral oil. I Personally submerge mine in mineral oil over night then let dry and buff out and then run in 1 more coat and buff that out.
You can get regular mineral oil at your local megamart in the area with laxatives, or go to the drug store and get it there. You can also get it at a kitchen supply store for caring for cutting boards (more pricey for the same thing in a fancier plastic bottle)
<!----><!---->
Care of a Cutting Board:<!----><!---->
Care of the board is to wash it down after use with a mild detergent and rinse well. once a week wipe down all sides with mineral oil. I also recommend using a few drops of bleach in a gallon of water and using that to wipe down the board once a month and then rinse and apply mineral oil.
Cutting boards benefit from a monthly apllication of mineral oil (just like my cats)
To sanitize and care for the board, Rinse well wafter use and mix 2 tblsp of bleach in 1 qt of water and wipe the board down real well 1 - 2 times a week (or after cutting meat on it). Once a month, rub it down with mineral oil. AND NEVER, EVER PUT A CUTTING BOARD IN THE DISWASHER!!!<!----><!---->
The U.S. Federal Government did a study on wood and plastic cutting boards and found that the microbes die off on a wood board within 10 hrs after use, while they can live up to a week or more on a plastic one.. I just like to be safe and use the bleach solution on a lot of my kitchen equipment. After wiping down the wood cutting board I do the same to the plastic one and then my wooden spoons and finally wipe down the counter tops before dumping it1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Thanks Ricks...
Lots of good info there.
Chuck
I used BLO for cutting boards in the past -- but no more. It has a rancid smell that never goes away. Tung oil or tung based wiping varnishes are better choices.
Mineral oil is the poorest oil to use as a finish: it does not form a film and wears out quickly. It is naively used by those who fear toxicity of other finishes.
Bottom line: ALL finishes when cured are non-toxic. Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
Many would argue that pure, 100% tung oil has as bad an odor as boiled linseed oil. Besides, it offers little additional protection over mineral oil. Both rapidly degrade with washing and need to be renewed periodically. Few "Tung Oil Finishes" contain any real tung oil. Most are linseed oil and varnish or thinned varnish products. These finishes are OK (again the odor problem for some) but do not hold up if the board is actually used for cutting. They are OK for salad bowls and Behlen's Salad Bowl Finish is an oil/varnish product.Howie.........
Howard, I must respectfully disagree on several of your points. First is one that may be more personal preference-- I don't find tung oil to smell bad at all, and it is not one where I've seen that many would argue so. My experience is many say tung oil is the oil to use on food surfaces because it won't go rancid--although you have to watch out for nut allergies. Again, smell is a personal perception.
But...
Mineral oil offers little or no protection as a finish. Like all oils, it is hydrophobic and will repel water. But unlike tung or BLO, it will not form a film when curing; it lacks the chemical moieties required to undergo a crosslinking reaction. Since it is not reactive, and will not form anything close to a hard finish. It is little different than rubbing valvoline 10w-40 into your wood (OK, it's a little different, in that it has been refined more than motor oil--but it is a petroleum distillate like motor oil). Nor will mineral oil penetrate into the wood like a vegetable oil (tung, BLO).
Others have offered their opinion in this forum that mineral oil yields a hard, durable finish. That's a nice opinion, but as far as factual it's in line with those opinions that the earth is flat. The chemistry just does not agree with these opinions.
Any finish used on a cutting board will need repairing with some frequency. Mineral oil will need it much faster because (1) it doesn't penetrate the wood, and (2) it does not harden. Reactive finishes like stinky BLO or non-stinky tung oil (no bias here!) will both penetrate and cure to a harder film.
I'll not go into the point about "tung oil", "tung oil finishes", whether an oil finish that has cross resin added can be called an oil or must be called a wiping varnish--to me, that's like arguing religious sect differences. I like finishes that have as a major component oil from the tung seed. They penetrate well, will harden, give a nice sheen and don't smell as bad as BLO. The well-known down-side of tung oil (the real McCoy) is you must be careful to use a form that has been modified to allow the oil to cure faster, either by addition of driers or cross-linkers.
Finally, it's worth repeating again and again, ALL cured finishes available in the US (and probably our neighbors to the North) are food safe. There is no reason to seek out an expensive product that touts itself as "food safe." There is no reason to fear using a tung based product because it will be used with food. After all--it is a vegetable oil. Mineral oil is a petroleum distillate.
Lest anyone think I'm from the anti-mineral oil sect--mineral oil is good for many things. Like enemas.
PaulRecommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
I play a respectful devils advocate just to get out the other side of the issues. Although, many of your points do not have their genesis in my prior posts.
>> My experience is many say tung oil is the oil to use on food surfaces because it won't go rancid--although you have to watch out for nut allergies. Again, smell is a personal perception.
I'm glad we can agree that there is a heath issue and a distinct odor with tung oil. Neither is a problem with mineral oil.
>> Mineral oil offers little or no protection as a finish.
I won't argue with that. I consider it a treatment, not a finish. However, commercial butcher blocks are treated with mixture of mineral oil and either beeswax or paraffin. The mineral oil is heated and the wax added. The hot liquid is applied to the wood surface and it is partially absorbed. It also makes the surface almost impervious to water unlike mineral alone or tung oil or BLO. It appreciably lengthens the time between treatments.
>> Mineral oil will need it much faster because (1) it doesn't penetrate the wood, and (2) it does not harden. Reactive finishes like stinky BLO or non-stinky tung oil (no bias here!) will both penetrate and cure to a harder film.
I would argue that either of the three oils will equally penetrate given the same viscosity. There is nothing inherently different about BLO or tung oil in that regard. Pure, 100% tung oil is very thick and viscous. It will just sit on the surface of the wood unless agressively rub in. Once the BLO or tung oil is absorbed, it will not form a film--it's mostly in the wood. Here is sort of oxidizes into a soft almost gummy compound. It does not harden. Spread a thin layer of either BLO or tung oil on a sheet of glass. Wait a month and see if a film or a gummy glob results.
>> I like finishes that have as a major component oil from the tung seed.
Just curious, what finishes have you found that meet that criteria. Other than some marine specific varnish made with phenolic resin and tung oil, there are almost no consumer available tung oil finishes that contain any real tung oil.
We may not have convinced each other but there has been some good info in this thread. Interested folks can see the points and make their own informed decision.Howie.........
Howard -
Spread a thin layer of either BLO or tung oil on a sheet of glass. Wait a month and see if a film or a gummy glob results.
Do the same with mineral oil. It won't even form a gummy glob--it will run right off. Subject the glass to a couple of washes with water, and you will still have the cured oil, but the mineral oil will be disappearing.
If you want a water barrier, a cured oil is better than mineral oil. Adding wax to any finish will improve it slightly for repeling water, but it too will wash away soon enough (which is why one needs to rewax their car all the time). Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
I've just finished a maple breadboard and find this discussion valuable. Just a quick clarification, however. When you made this statement:
"The well-known down-side of tung oil (the real McCoy) is you must be careful to use a form that has been modified to allow the oil to cure faster, either by addition of driers or cross-linkers."
Did you mean to say, "...you must be careful NOT to use a form that has been modified..." or is it as you have written.
Thanks,
Kevin
True tung oil dries veerrrryyyy slooooowwww (what we scientists call "a long time"). It's better to use polymerized tung oil, or tung oil with Japan driers, or a tung oil based wiping varnish. These finishes all afford a little more protection and faster drying than pure tung oil.
It's similar to linseed oil. Plain old linseed oil dries slowly, but curing is catalyzed by heating the oil (what we scientists call "boiling") or adding driers to it. What is called "boiled linseed oil" nowadays tends not to have been boiled, but has drying agents added to it.
Add enough crosslinking goop (what we scientists call "resin"), and voila, your oil is now a varnish. It will drier harder and faster because of all those nice reactive groups in there.
Maybe if FG isn't reading this thread, I can slip in a lawyer joke. What's the difference between a lawyer and a Grizzly drill press?Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
A working cutting board doesn't need a finish other than perhaps mineral oil from time to time.
If you can't drink it out of the bottle it shouldn't be used in projects involving food preparation regardless of what you hear about lack of toxicity "once it cures."
Use a potable oil or nothing at all.
Best oil is mineral oil - any vegtable oil can possibly go rancid. The best wood for a cutting board is HARD maple. Yes you will see walnut used in some, but maple is the best. If you go with anything else, make sure it is a nice fine grain and hard. Open pores can possibly trap microbes.
If you would like some more info on cutting boards, I did a long winded reply either here or in Cooks Talk on the subject within the last 6 months. Check in the advanced search for messeages from me on the subject of cutting boards and read that over.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Has anyone commented on the proper glue to use yet; or the joint alignment technique (biscuits or dowels)?
And would the sanding grit be 180 or higher or lower?
Has anyone commented on the proper glue to use yet
Titebond III is plenty waterproof to stand up to rinsing off the board. I let a glob of it harden in a stainless steel utility sink a few months ago, and still haven't gotten the darn thing off.
I use titebond II or III, whichever I have on hand at the time. II will stand up to the limitied wetting a cutting board will get with no problem - it is highly water resistant, while III is waterproof. - That being said, if I see both next to each other on the glue shelf, I will use III for my cutting boards as a bit of extra long term quality assurance.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
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