I have a commission to build some small boats suitable for ponds or bathtubs. These boats will be between 9″ and 18″ long> I plan to add some character to them by making laminations. I planned to use walnut and maple or maybe white oak for the laminations. Anyone have an idea how well this will stand up to water. i know walnut is very resistant to rot and white oak was used in sailing ships for centuries so this is why I was looking at these woods. I was going to use tite Bond 3 for the glue ups. What about a suitable finish.no paint allowed Any comments?
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
” If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy……..yessa!”
Edited 4/9/2008 10:21 pm ET by cherryjohn
Replies
I would forget the maple. I am laying a bunch of BE Maple at the present. We are having a lot of rain lately, and I just went over to get some parts that I cut out yesterday, and placed on a table in the back. When I looked at the stack, I thought, I don't remember them looking that oxidized. I had put a piece of tape on the front to label the part. When I pealed the tape, I could see a dry shadow. Then I could feel that the top sheet had sucked moisture out of the air enough that it felt wet.
I have been drying it with a heat gun, because I need to lay them up tonight.
I would use something like Western Cedar.
A classic for bigger boats is Port Orford Cedar. Boats up to 30 feet are commonly laid up with regular plywood (not marine) and epoxy in whats called "stitch and glue" construction. TB3 may or may not be your best bet. I think when it comes to boats and absolute watertight integrity is needed, a modern day shipwright would default to West or System 3 epoxies for glue ups and clear (slightly to full amber) base epoxy for the finish or a two part marine epoxy enamel if painting. I've never heard of anyone even considering TB3 for a marine glue-up.
John
You misunderstand the project I think. These are toy wooden boats...9" and 18" long with no paint. The good part is the boats will see very little water in their life but the wood I select has to be suitable for water. Im thinking white oak and walnut laminate 3-4 laminations. The boats would look good and be able to withstand moisture.....Im just a bit unsure of the walnut in water and what finish I will apply as these are for kids. I wonder about the weight of white oak and how much freeboard this will give me. maybe cedar is the way to go............ Id just prefer to use NH woods if I can.Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
I think I understood your project.
Toy boats. Little pond. Water. No Paint.
Scale is irrelevant. Unless I was wrong, tub or pond, it is wood boat in water. Water is water. Fresh or marine, green stuff not withstanding.
The wood and finish is what you inquired about. Initially you didn't limit the woods to NH. Please be clear in what your asking.
Some woods are better than others, especially if it comes to model scale. Open pores and all that. No wood by itself is inherently waterproof. Not even Cyprus. Some are more resistant. Weight (oak) at that scale has little to do with it, if you build the boat correctly. You are talking about displacement. Unless epoxy laminated, you could have separation. English White oaks/French Oaks were used in ships because they were strong and locally available in England,France and Holland, not because they were a significantly more water resistant wood (although Oaks are a little better than some). Makay's clippers were built with fir and oak and hickory and ash. If your thinking about the White Oak in the U.S.S. Constitution, those were not from NH. They come from the "King's Wood" plats in Georgia and still do. It was chosen for strength and ability to bounce the cannon balls back.
Is someone going to shoot at these "craft"?
Not to say White Oak was not used in NH. Use walnut, Cedar is fine, basswood is fine. Doug Fir is fine if they are all sealed. Balsa is fine. Use whatever wood floats your boat.
" finish. no paint allowed "
Spar varnish-above decks - fine and orange, below decks- short term, Polys-short term. The only reasonably priced modern sealer used on wood boats in water is clear epoxy. If your worried about the show parts coming apart, use epoxy. Kid safe. This what the finish is on all those natural wood show boats in New England.
If your thinking about the White Oak in the U.S.S. Constitution, those were not from NH. They come from the "King's Wood" plats in Georgia and still do.
Not quite.
Replacement timbers for major renovations over the years were and still are from lumber tracts in Bainbridge, GA but the originals were from all parts of the country.
All told, wood for the original construction came from all parts of the young country. Today, finding the right sizes and shapes of timbers to use in the maintenance and restoration of the ship requires forethought and imagination. When ships were routinely constructed of wood, the Navy stockpiled timbers. But with the advent of steel-hulled ships, the Navy let its stores of ship timbers become depleted. It takes a decade to dry out timbers with the huge dimensions required by Constitution, says Dean, and his crew is stockpiling live oak, white oak, and other woods in an Air Force hanger for the preservationists of tomorrow.
White oak used on Old Ironsides most often comes from Constitution Grove in Crane, Indiana, but it is live oak that is the most difficult wood to find in the sizes required for the ship. The stately live oaks grow short, squat, and gnarly, with lots of limbs, Turner says. Because the trees grow in such odd patterns, little strength is lost by cutting against or across the grain. While the long, straight-grained white-oak planks are used for hull planking, the live oak's large branch sections and odd shapes are required for knee supports, breasthooks in the prow, and curving "compass timbers."
The majority of the trees large enough to be used for those purposes are upwards of 200 years old, Deans explains, and are difficult to come by. For this most recent work, the city of Charleston, South Carolina, donated live oaks felled in 1989 by Hurricane Hugo, and other timbers have come from construction projects throughout the Southeast.
International Paper Company donated white and live oak from property it owns near Bainbridge, Georgia, after an employee read an article describing how oaks from Georgia's barrier islands were used in the original construction and an accompanying piece describing restoration needs. The trees were cut free of charge by a tree-harvesting firm working in the area, and the logs were stored temporarily at the Marine Corps Logistics Base in Albany, Georgia, before being hauled north.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/10/2008 12:20 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
A little long....Bob, Perhaps a little more quite than not quite.
I would concede that all the white oak does not come from the King's Wood plats ( George II ) in Georgia. The King's Wood plats (royal forests)throughout the colonies are a whole other story by themselves. I do know for a fact the giant white oaks were still in Georgia as I saw them in 2005 near Bainbridge (around New Brunswick and Valdosta) and there still is a Naval Authority there to watch over them.. The paper company stuff was just secondary - mostly live oak and not much of it. - more of a case of local pr. But there was a vastly significant amount of white oak and a smaller amount of live oak sent north under Military Transport Command from a Florida golf course developer.
"The oak logs were delivered to the U.S. Navy shipped free of charge, as the donation of a Jacksonville, Fla., development company. Allan MacCurrach, the President of MacCurrach Golf Construction, Inc. August , 1991 and again in September, 2002."
There are probably well over 5000 White Oak trees at Bainbridge, which would be more than enough to completely rebuild the ship as the original designs requirements (Joshua Humphreys' Letter Books. 1787-1800) required 3000 trees per ship for the first three 44 gun frigates. They (the Georgia whites) are no where near the required age of 170 to 250 years to be harvested, that being the minimum age to achieve the length of board required from DBH to Bower (1st crotch) for the main wales, strake and gun deck beams. The 1993 article of Eddie Nickens in "American Forests" was referring to the mid to late 90s refit and Turner was giving the current source listings. The oaks in the grove were immature but harvested anyway as the normal sources were not ready yet and they weren't working on the "big" beams. And still, the Georgia wood was not mature, All the previous oaks in the Indiana (nameless) grove were eliminated by harvest "in total" for the 1930s rebuild. The grove was denuded. In 1938 the grove was dedicated "Constitution Grove" - Head: "Over 125 Fraternal Organizations Joined to Support Scouting in 1938
Copy: On November 6, 1938 hundreds of Scouts and members of the community assembled at the new Camp Mattatuck to dedicate 12 pine trees planted to honor the United States Constitution. The trees were donated by virtually every civic organization and Boy Scout troop in the area."
Then new seedlings of White Oak were planted in 1938 and it was those that were harvested in limited amount as they were just past cornage for the "up to 4.5 inch" ship interior running planks attached to the live oaks above the water line.(below was largely doug fir against the live oak futtocks). The trees were no where near the maturity needed for the main beam needs, It is considered a nursery for future needs by the Naval Surface Warfare Center at this point. Although the Navy was involved in the first plantings - with Boy Scouts, how could they not...The Navy itself wasn't established there until 1976. They are behind razor wire.
There are many full growth cut trees in storage including many live oaks, some underwater( oxygen deprivation) at Kings Bay Georgia, Some at Kings Wood, GA (coincidence ) near Savannah and more than quite a bit up by you at Kittery - over at Portsmouth Naval Shipyard -At the bottom of a spring-fed ice-pond on Seavey's Island is a cache of live oak futtocks. They have been there for 75-years. By the by, the original keel was not of white oak as per spec. but of New Hampshire Elm. Not all woods came from the colonies. Lignum Vitae from South America was used for the deadeyes, blocks, bearings, belaying pins and other abrasion prone sail and deck hardware. Contrary to Turner et al., a majority of the wood came almost exclusively from New Hampshire, Massachusetts and New York. Edmund Hartt (the Hartt's Yard) was a true Yankee Trader and would not deal without a "profitable return". A very limited amount of some specialty woods did come from Maine to Georgia.
Only the Keel, Stem, Stemson, Floor and raising timbers, Lower Futocks, Breast hooks were actually specified as White oak by Humphreys. The Timbers, Main Wales, Black Strakes, and Thick Work below the Gun Deck were left at builders discretion. It was Joshia Fox that made the Oak decision. He was the frame man. He found the Live Oak he needed in the Georgia basins, but on the way found the White Oak. He was a trained forester from England. Two Birds as it were. Deadly birds. Work on the frigate almost stopped as Fox could not find enough loggers to send south. They were dying like flies in the malaria ridden bogs where they found the Live Oaks. Many men died. Humphreys was arrogant and couldn't be bothered as he apparently was more concerned with the laurels and less with the actual building. He did design a beautiful ship, but Fox and the Yard built a beautiful ship.
The 2002-2005 work has pretty much pointed up the need for good lamination to take over until more stable resources can be found. As of November 2007, they were still using "full beams" on the strakes. They don't look quite as long...As an aside there are two woody things I would add.The first from the Salem Gazette in 1798. (Essex) "True lovers of the liberty of your country, step forth and give your assistance in building the frigate to oppose French insolence and piracy. Let every man in possession of a White Oak Tree be ambitious to be foremost in hurrying down the timber to Salem, and fill the compliment wanting, where the noble structure is to be fabricated, to maintain your rights upon the Sea and make the name of America respected among the nations of the world.
Your largest and longest trees are wanted, and arms of them for knees and rising timber. Four trees wanted for keel which will measure 146 feet and hew 16 inches square. Please call on subscriber who wants to make contracts for large and small quantities as may best suit, and will pay ready cash.Next September is the time
When we shall launch from the stand
And our cannon load and prime
With tribute due to Talleyrand."And the second;The British were told that our frigates were made of fir. Therefore they were puzzled as to the low number of our casualties since fir was known to explode and splinter horribly in battle. Since they had used up most of their White Oak over hundreds of years of ship and fortress battles, when it came time in 1813 to start rebuilding their fleet, they chose..... fir. It never dawned on them that ours were made of oak and worse, that they were just simply horrible cannoneers.Regards
John
It sounds like you have recieved good advice. You can also check the woodenboat forum. One thing I'll add is that there are two completely distinct approaches to wooden boats. The first is the traditional method where wood properties are critical, and swelling of the wood is significant to sealing and function. The second approach, exemplified by woodstrip canoes, is complete encapsulation of the wood so that any species will be fine. The thing here is that "encapsulation" is pretty significant. Usually one uses fiberglass cloth, completely soaked in epoxy resin, to cover the entire hull. The epoxy and the glass have the same index of refraction, so the glass visually disappears into the clear finish. The thick layer of epoxy is needed to really keep out water. Epoxy alone would work if you did not need the strength, but you would need at least three complete coats to be reasonably confident it would keep out the water. For real boats exposed to sunlight, the epoxy must then be covered by a good marine varnish containing substantial UV blockers. With this construction, a small break in the coating can cause substantial damage as water causes local swelling.
Just in case you want to go a little bigger -- check out this thread over on sawmill. It also is the answer to all the discussion about oak etc.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=689559#poststop
Get a book Boat Modeling with Dynamite Payson, by Harold "Dynamite" Payson or Boat Modeling the Easy Way by "Dynamite" Payson.
That sounds interesting. Any idea on where to get this book? Amazon?
Upon reading the comments back on this post it has occured to me that what my vision on the design of these boats and the particulars as I know them were not accurately and completely shared in my first post. I apologize.
Perhaps I should have mentioned that a $10-12 retail price point is what I am shooting for so the wholesale price should be no more than $8-9 for the small boats. The larger boats would be more in the $25 range at retail I suspect. Before the retailer and I can get down to brass tacks on the pricing I needed to make a prototype and submit it. Originally my customer and I were discussing a sailing boat with a wooden mast and a slip over the mast fabric sail. I am moving away from the sail boat because I dont sew and I would have to outsource the sail construction to a seamstress. I am moving toward the design being one of a New England lobster boat as the initial submission with other designs to follow. The hull thickness of the wood would be about 1" for the smally boats and perhaps 1 1/2" for the bigger boats. The customer wants a cockpit so the kids can put little things in it. I plan to do this with a plunge router. Its important to keep the hand work to a minimum. While I love being in my shop I dont want all the profit to go to the retailer and what I get is the satisfaction of seeing my work displayed in the store.Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
White oak will blacken if allowed to get and remain wet (without a finish). Another vote for cedar (Google 'T class').
thanks for the input.It beginning to look like cedar and Mahogany or jusr cedar so I dont have to do any glueups for the hull. Above the plimsol mark ( salty doge here ) I can use mahogany to give the boat character. I am going to look up that book that book by Dynamite Payson.."Boat building the easy way" Easy usuall equates to inexpensive.
Being a graduate of The Maine Maritime Acad with a degree in engineering and seven years sailing merchant ships, I am enjoying this discussion about wooden ship construction very much. Heave ho me hardies!
Did you know that the expression "cold enought to freeze the balls off a brass monkey" has a nautical derivation? When they stored cannon balls next to the guns they stacked them like a pyramid. On the bottom of that pyramid there was what was called a monkey; a metal plate with indents to hold the bottom layer in place. When iron monkeys were used the cannon balls would be prone to rust in place so they used brass instead. The expansion and shrink factors of brass and iron are quite different and the brass would shrink when it got cold. Too cold and all the balls would fall off the monkey. I bet most of you thought the expression was more racy than this huh? And all this time you guys just figured me for a sawdust maker.Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
CJ, Did you know either Al Foote or, damn, what was his name, Briggs, maybe. Al would have graduated around 1970, the other party at least 10 years before.
Careful on the nautical stuff or we'll get into the finer points of gronicles, and heaven knows where we'd go next...
Al Foote was in my class 0f 1972. We called him Ruby. He got in a fight one day and came away with this dreadfull read eye...hence, "Ruby". Al died sometime ago....heart attack on a turbine casing while working for Boston Edison.
I didnt know anyone called BiggsWicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
That sounds about like Al. When I have more time I'll relate the story of the Rt 93/Rt 89 interchange and Al trying to smoke me with his very hot Boss 302 Mustang...
This is what I was doing today, speaking of model boats.
View Image
A friend just redid 'Barbara' for me, and today was her first sail in many a year. Her exact age, and original name, if any, are unknown, but Andy is pretty certain she was built about 1930. Her namesake, Barbara, was one hell of a sailor and was the Maine Champ as a kid, but I don't recollect the class. She was also quite the equestrian, ranked #2 in Maine.
A very classy lady, I'm pleased to have had her influence in my younger years.
I think youve just posted a pic ture of the boat my customer has in mind..........for $25-$30. Ill have to re-educate her into the realities of life visa vis the cost of materials and working for more than 35c /dy if this is the case.
That is a beautiful boat.......... "the most beautiful thing ever created by man is a sailing boat".......... someone said it; dont know who
Al loved his cars!
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Edited 4/13/2008 9:11 am ET by cherryjohn
I got it, just popped into my head while giving Mr Dickins his morning's due. Charlie Briggs. Maybe that will ring the proverbial bell.
It sounds like you would be laying up a breadboard hull. The router would be best and you could slug a small fishing weight for ballast. Perhaps a hinged superstructure so the top would open and give the kids a neat little hidey hole.When you get it going, post some shots.
John
Oh my......."superstructure"..tell me how many light houses have you passed?Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
More than a few :)
"I've rug more salt water out of my socks then you have ever seem"
"Ive passed more light housed then youve passed telephone poles"
two nautical comments that one of my instructors at Canoe U used to say all the timeWicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
maple won't last and I have my doubts about the walnut. If the wood is to be immersed in water I'd use teak or ipe. Both need care with glue up. And I would use a polyurethane glue for the glue up. The wood need to be wiped with alcohol or similar just prior to gluing for the bond to work well.
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