Big problems with my grizzly 1023 lately has me stumped, upset ( I am in the middle of some big projects) and seriously looking at the PM2000.
I cannot get a square crosscut no matter what I do or how many times I check all the usual suspects. I am starting to suspect that perhaps the arbor bearings my be worn ! – the table saw is 7 years old- and causing blade runnout that I have never experienced before.
For instance, cutting a 1″ square table leg to length, among the problems I have noticed is the cut is crowned ???, not only that but I will also get “snipe” similar to the type one would get at the trailing bottom edge when ripping and the fence is tilted in toward back side of blade ( yeah, I get that too…Yes I have checked the fence, miter slots,arbor flange runnout etc and all are good). The Snipe is quite bad and usually appears on the top corner against the miter fence and the opposing one as well, but not always.
I have noticed for some time that the saw has seemed to be getting louder, could this be a sign?
I wish these problems where caused by alignment issues or user error but I have used the saw a lot and made a lot of furniture with it with no major problem till recently, so I am thinking worse case here.
Anyone have similar problems?, suggestions, or anyone ever replace an arbor before on a grizzly?
Thanks for your help steve
Replies
Steve, I would contact Grizz and get there tech line on your phone. They were very helpful when I called them before buying machines, going over some pros and cons. My experience with Delta showed they had a solid guy in tech to talk me through some adjustments for it also.
Some simple things to check first, and others will have a better list.
Is the blade OK and not warped itself? Put on a different blade, a new is better.
Is there debris, or buildup on the arbor shaft, the backer or the washer or the blade? That can make a blade run out of true, I had a warped blade that wrecked havoc and for the life of me I don't know why it warped.
IMHO, if the arbor is worn out and does not run true you should be able to see the wobble, or play the blade side to side and feel some movement or even feel the bearings have a gritt feel.
Your decscription of snipe and coving sounds like my issues before I had my saw alligned correctly. After I set it up, it moved again and I had to reallign it. From you post it sounds like you have done that and then again with much frustration. If not this is a good link http://thewoodwhisperer.com/ episode 55 pretty much covers it, but again that is probably old news to someone with 7 years on a saw.... but you might glean something and the light switch goes on?
Let us know what happens with Griz, I respect them a lot and they build a decent tool, and they seem to follow up on it.
AZMO
AZMO
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I have noticed for some time that the saw has seemed to be getting louder, could this be a sign?
I had a similar problem with a Powermatic 66. Check to see if the arbor pulley has come loose. If that is not the culprit it could very well be the bearings. In my case, the arbor pulley came loose, in turn it wallowed out the pulley hole and the end of the arbor, which I believed caused excessive heat and fried the bearings. I had to replace the arbor, arbor pulley, and bearings.
Good luck,
Lee
Ouch!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
Actually, wasn't that bad. I think the arbor (with the bearings pressed on already) from Powermatic costs less than $80. Another $40 or so for the machined pulley. Only took about 30-45 min to remove/replace, and I found a way to do it without removing the saw's top.
There were some good things that came out of it: Powermatic started to put 2 set screws in the newer pulleys, instead of one (my bad pulley only had 1 set screw). I also learned to keep a watchful eye on all accessible machine pulleys and tighten or check the setscrews periodically. I have a Grizzly planer that the motor pulley keeps coming loose - I may need a little loctite on that one.
And I can thank Don Green - he diagnosed the problem from his armchair at home. Gotta love this place!
Lee
Don's experience and willingness to share info is a blessing here.
Loctite: Aren't there 2 or 3 versions of Loctite, for different applications? (e.g., "stay tight forever and ever" and "stay tight, but removeable") I need to get the latter for a few things in the shop and at the stables.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Ahh, one my favorite things is blue loctite on my bike parts. The only way to fly when you don't want things to backing out and vibrating apart. I rarely use the permanent loctite, red, as you never know when you might want to get it apart again....
Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
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I took apart a high-tech saddle the other day to put in a different sized gullet. Was surprised to see red on the threads, which I assume was Loctite, but it couldn't have been intended to be there forever. These saddles ("Wintec") are made with removeable gullets, so you can size them to different horses. With a traditional saddle, you can end up having to get a new saddle when you change horses. At close to (or above) $3,000 a pop, that can get discouraging.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 8/4/2008 1:56 am by forestgirl
J, RED IS FOREVER, or until you heat it with a torch. blue and green are more happy to part company. For some strange reason red chalk powder for a chalk line is the same, it never goes away. Paddy,
Paddy,
Why would you put red loctite in a chalkbox? You'll never get the string to come out!
Haha,
Ray
Get on the horn with their tech departement they are good. When I bought mine about 4 or so years ago I bought a magnetic base kit for 30 bucks they had that gives you the ability to meausure runout. the base is magnetic and you put the dial indicator on the arbor and spin it. It will show you real quick. I would not jump to just replacing the arbor right off the bat. I just checked and it's still there.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Magnetic-Base-Dial-Indicator-Combo-President-s-Special/G9849
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Edited 8/3/2008 10:26 am by bones
Steve,
I have a G1023. I haven't any of those problems.
Have you removed the belts? Look for unusual wear. ie. Fraying to one side. When the belts are removed grab the arbor and see if in wiggles. Rotate it by hand and see if you feel any clicking in the bearings. Louder often means the belts aren't tight anymore. If they are loose then they could be whipping.
I would also check all the nuts and bolts something may have vibrated loose.
I'm sure you know this already but it never hurts to say it again. Unplug your saw before reaching into it.
As others have said call Grizzly. I've had good luck with their tech support department.
Good luck!
Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
thanks for the responces everyone. until I can get ahold of tech support at Grizzly i will be putting some of the suggestions to the test.
-I do have the dail calipar set from grizzly ( I think i got it as a free gift when i ordered the saw, remember when they used to offer gifts with your orders?), i have used it to check abor flange runnout some time ago and it was spot on!
-I also have a dail indicater set for testing miter slots etc., comes with a flat plate and a sliding miter slot attachment for the gage to test the blade to miter slot.Will go over that again.
-My blades are all top of the line, Forrest WWII and frueds including the new fusion blade.
- will be checking all the pulleys and belts. I have visually before and they looked good.
I will let you all know what develops asap. thanks again! steve
"My blades are all top of the line "WWII and Freuds....."
Are you sure some saboteur has not changed the blades when you were not looking? I'm sure you have checked that out. I had a cheap Sears blade once - still probably around somewhere. It cut good but had all the symptoms you mentioned.
well, I checked all the alignment issues again and they looked good. I then took Len's advice and removed the belts to give them and the pulleys a good once over, they where ok and good. I then got off the floor stepped to the side of the saw gave the arbor a pull straight up.......lets just say my suspitions of worn bearings became at that moment an undeniable truth.
Got Grizzly tech support on the phone ( they where as good, patient, helpful and attentive as had been mentioned by others), after some diagnostics it was clear the bearings where shot. It seems to me the tension of the belts had to be about the only thing keeping the blade somewhat under control.
Now its on to replacement (or attempt anyway), Grizzly tech says to completly doable but i am not so sure. i spent a couple hours tonite taking the saw apart and the top off. once i cleaned all the parts off i attempted to remove the arbor from the casting.
Its still there, so I am wondering if anyone has any experience with doing this on a grizzly (or any other thats not preassembled such as the PM) and can offer some advice. they "key" under the arbor pulley seem to be whats holding me back from getting it apart but there is no way to access it to knock it out. Any tips on getting the new bearings seated proprley would be helpful, grizzly thought it was no big deal , I thinking otherwise.
I would like to get the old girl up and running, complete some on going projects asap before i send her on her way
Seven years is pretty short life for bearings unless you do full time woodworking I'd think. You don't need to get the bearings from Grizzley, almost certainly they are a standard size available locally, and probably of higher quality. If the arbor is damaged you might want to get that from Grizzley.
I've removed bearings from my old Unisaw (40's vintage). I do was leary about installing the bearings, but just took them and the part that holds bearings and arbor to a local machine shop. They had a bearing press that made it a very easy job. I don't remember the cost, but not very expensive.
These cabinet saws ought to have a very long life--7 years old is just a youngster.
Thanks everyone, I posted too soon after speaking to grizzly an assessing the bearings where bad. It looks as though just the one closest to the blade was worn but I had yet to get the arbor out.
I did tonight, and it shows a shocking degree of wear!, hard to get a good measure of it but it is very visible to the eye and undeniable to the finger test. alas, I must admit, its the real problem (got a new one on the way). what is so disturbing to me is the part of the arbor that is in contact with the bearing (again just the one closest to the blade) has a very weird and deep groove in the middle and the rest of the space under the bearing is worn down as mentioned. I cant understand this because there is nothing showing on the bearing that would cause the grove. I suspect that was already there when installed.
It wasn't easy to get the bearings out. The grizzly tech told me to take the casting that holds them off and do it at the bench. I gave that a go but ran into all kinds of roadblocks that he had not mentioned ( I honestly don't think he knew, he appeared to be looking at the same exploded plan of the saw that I was), one can only get the casting off by taking other connected castings that hold the motor and have moving parts . I am weary of doing any of that for fear that every thing I do , when I put it back, will not be correct and hence my results of poor cuts will return( I'm one of those who wood work by the .000's).
Len, I would like to add photos if I knew how, perhaps I can, I have thought of taking some, I've never had my baby so torn apart!
thanks everyone , will keep you posted!
steve
Steve,
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Taking apart anything is daunting at times. I just replaced the power window motor in my truck. I have never done that before. I examined all the parts and read what I could find on the Internet and actually read the instructions that came with the motor. I got it done and saved myself several hundred dollars.
My point is, take it slow. Look at all the parts. Even photograph the assembly and each stage of disassembly. That's what I did that when I was restoring my bandsaw. If you feel frustrated then it's time to put it down and take a breather. It will all go back together and it will be just as accurate as before. Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
Have you been to this site: http://www.sawcenter.com/unisaw.htm which has step by step instructions, with some pictures (less than perfect photography but should help) of the process. They should be by and large applicable to the Grizzley. (You don't think the g1023 was designed from scratch do you?)
There are quite a few sites with info on rebuilding the Unisaw if you google rebuild Unisaw. also: http://thisoldserver.com/assets/unisaw%20build.htm and http://modernwoodworking.blogspot.com/search/label/Unisaw (good pictures, some text)
I sure don't remember the details, but once I had the top off, and the motor blocked up and belts off, the bracket that holds the arbor could be be removed. Look at the point where it pivots to raise the blade up and down.
Sometimes metal parts fail. My 2002 Toyota Corolla's engine blew with only 70 some thousand miles on it. I was shocked because the reputation of the car was for the engine to last as much as 300K or more without a whimper. Not mine.
Since your lamentable bearing failure is the only such problem I have heard re: the Griz 1023, and since its reputation otherwise seems to bespeak quality, and since you have loved the saw and used it extensively for seven years, I would not blacklist it just yet.
Of course it is frustrating. When I was sitting on the narrow shoulder of a very busy highway during rush hour in my Toyota, I felt powerless and not too happy.
Press on, brother! Chances are that your Griz will be as good as new when you have replaced the damaged parts (and I would certainly replace all of the bearings) and you will once again be back on track sawing straight cuts!
First of all. It's good you found the problem. I know it's discouraging when something like this happens.
I would spray some penetrating oil into the key and arbor. Let it sit. Patience is the key here. Let the oil do the work. I knocked my bearings out on my Delta bandsaw with a wooden dowel and a hammer. I rigged a hydraulic car jack to push out the shaft. I've also used a large clamp to remove a shaft. Can you take some pictures? It would be of great help so we can help you diagnose the problem. Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
I would spray some penetrating oil into the key and arbor. Let it sit.
Skip the WD40 here and get a can of PB Blaster if you can. Works wonders in this type of situation.
Lee
Good point!
I wasn't refering to WD40 and I don't think of it as a pentrating oil. But I guess many do.Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
Forestgirl, be careful when buying the loctite. I bought some tubes at an auto parts store about a year ago - I needed both so I got 1 red tube and 1 blue tube. The contents of the blue tube are of course red, and it really small letters on the front is says "Red highstrength ". The contents of the red tube ( marked in small letters " blue removable " ) were of course blue. I picked up another tube a few weeks ago and the tube is red, with a blue flag around the word loctite, and the word "red" is barely legible because it is written in red on a red background, with a very fine white highlight.
"The contents of the blue tube are of course red, and it really small letters on the front is says "Red highstrength ". The contents of the red tube ( marked in small letters " blue removable " ) were of course blue." Ahhhhh, geeeez, I'm getting a headache! You must be kidding....uhhhh, I guess not. I could make some predictable, snide remark about the Packaging Director being a retired government employee, but I won't. Thanks for the heads-up.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I have a 1023 purchased in 1996. Probably in 1998 or 99, I discovered about .002" runout on the face of the arbor. I removed the arbor and had it ground true--measuring less than .0005" runout on the face of the arbor.
The point of my post is, that although I don't remember the sequence of disassembly or re-assembly, I do know it was neither was difficult at all. At seven years of age, this will give you the ability to give the innards a "spic and span" cleaning and re-lubing.
For the past years, I've become more of a "handtool" person, but I still use the 1023 on occassion. Because my machine is a few years older than yours, I'm going to check my bearings. When you replace yours, you may want to get assistance from a machine shop to make sure everything is sized correctly and also to aid in the insertion of the new bearings and then the arbor into the bearings. You may even want to do a search on the web for "The Saw Center". They provide new arbors for Unisaws and also re-build services. You may be able to ship your assembly to them for a rebuild (if they would do it!).
Disassembly isn't hard, just take your time, note what parts came from where and if you find yourself hurrying or getting frustrated, put your tools down and go cool off.
T.Z.
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