Hello everyone … I’m looking for the most specific answer I can get and this seemed like the best place to go. Hope you guys can take a couple minutes to give me advice.
I’m a serial remodeler who is pretty good with a paint brush. We are on our third 1920s home and really prefer the recessed panel, white painted doors when we remodel kitchens. The first period kitchen we did I used Benjamin Moore Dulamel (oil based) for the birch plywood cabinet doors. The finish was highly durable but yellowed badly on the interior. Outside it looked beautiful and wore very well.
The second kitchen we did I used milk paint with a Ben Moore latex clear coat over it. I ended up needing three or four thin coats of the milk paint alone because of coverage issues; after so many coats the milk paint crazed a little. Then I used three coats of clear coat. It was an arduous process and I’m not sure how durable it was because we moved shortly afterward. It did look nice and period-appropriate, however.
For this third kitchen I ordered some beautiful full overlay doors in unfinished maple. I want the most durable finish but one that is repairable because we have two very active little boys who will be hard on them. I would be willing to send them to a furniture finisher for a professional finish but I want to be able to do touchups so I’m not sure if this is the best choice.
If I paint them myself, should I use the Dulamel, or should I try Ben Moore’s new latex version of Dulamel? Brush or spray? (I have never sprayed.) If I spray should I use airless or HVLP? If I do oil, what about the yellowing on the interior of the doors?
I need the best repairable white finish I can get, and I need to know what is the best primer. I want this to be a one-shot, long-wearing deal, and I am willing to take as long as it takes to get it done right.
Thanks for any advice!
Replies
Sharon, what brand of "milk paint" did you use in House #2?? True milk paint should not craze or crackle unless specifically treated to do so, and the only MP that I know of that can be considered true-to-form is from the Old Fashioned Milk Paint Co.
The re-coat time is very short (a couple hours?). Shouldn't be tooooo tedious, though I guess we'd all like to get by with one coat.
You might want to give them a call and discuss your situation and what you're trying to accomplish. Here's their phone# and web site:
(978) 448-6336
http://www.milkpaint.com/index.html
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi forestgirl, thanks for the reply!
I did use the Old-Fashioned Milk Paint. I couldn't figure out why it was crazing a bit in some places but not others. Maybe I had a bad or expired batch in there? I would call 7 coats (4 milk paint, 3 clear coat finish) tedious in a big kitchen, but I'm willing to do the whole thing again if milk paint is the best thing for what I'm doing. Is that what you're saying -- that you think it's the best?
Sharon,
I'd spray rather than paint; it's a better, smoother finish.HVLP is cheaper to setup than an airless, and airless is designed to cover large surface areas instead of small jobs.
As you know, a good primer is a must,something like Zinsser white shellac(rather than the latex one).As far as yellowing goes,it happens with oil paints because they've replaced the lead with titanium for color retension,but it don't work as well.Still, oil is a harder and longer lasting finish than latex, and in general, the glossier the finish, the harder and more durable it is. Hope this helps.
Do you mean BIN, Jack? I've used it before and always like working with it.
So you are saying oil will be as durable as anything else. Should I finish the interiors with something else, since I'm not sure I can cope with the yellowing? I read somewhere about melamine paint, but I have no idea what it is.
Also, dumb question. Can I rent a HVLP at Home Depot or Lowe's? And do you promise it is easy to use?
Thanks so much to you both.
BIN is it. If yellowing is aproblem, the latex paints fare better than oil,so latex would be better on the interior. I don't think Home Despot or Lowe's would rent an HVLP,which is easy to use,but you could check or ask a paint dealer.If you've never sprayed, you could add Floetrol or a little linseed oil to the oil paint for better leveling as you brush it.
Sharon
I would recommend an airless rig to spray the cabinets. Latex, even thinned and with Floetrol is a bit much for a HVLP setup, whereas it is in the briar patch for an airless rig. I would still use the Floetrol additive.
Most rental yards and commercial paint centers will rent an airless.__________________________________________________________
Michael in San Jose
Freedom from mental disturbance is the very most for which one can hope.
Epicurus (341-270 BCE)
if youre worried about yellowing find one of the acrylic enamel waterborne finishes. S-W makes an acrylic enamel thats they tout as an epoxylike coating. Faster drying time and its water based. Its pretty stout and durable as nails.
airless has lots of overspray, good for walls and ceilings but youll waste paint even if you can find a tip that will spray 2-4 inches. HVLP or LVLP sprayer would give you the best results and waste less paint. Airless will waste a dang near a quart of paint figuring priming, adjusting, cleaning and overspray.
Take a look at Schreuder paint. Expensive, but it self levels even when brushed on vertical surfaces.
http://merrillpaint.com/all_schreuder_house.htm
T
Thanks to all. This is really good info and much appreciated.
RE: Schreuder paints. I am intrigued, mostly because from my Google search I see they make the "original" oil-based Martha Stewart paints -- the first paint licensing contract she made years ago. I have heard nothing but wild raves about these paints but never knew where to find them, much less who made them.
I love to use top-quality obscure products so perhaps I'll see if I can get my hands on some of this stuff. I would love to spray, but I'm thinking now it might not be the easiest solution. I have two little boys as I mentioned, and one is 8 months old, and the idea that I could get the block (s) of time needed to spray 30 doors is kind of outrageous.
Don't even bring up my hubby. He is not exactly Mr. Handy Guy, God bless him.
Sharon:
Based on experience, I will bet that in the time you can brush one door you could have sprayed five.
I was a neophyte when I bought my first HVLP setup. First job (cherry armoire) came out perfect with a little learning mixed in. Bigger tip for enamel and it works nearly as well. Even a Wagner power painter can deliver a pretty good job. I did a house full of louvre doors that way. Don't be intimidated, you can do it!!
Here is the link to get a free pot of paint to try.
http://www.finepaints.com/html/products/samplepots_free.html
Regarding the Martha Stewart license; I wonder if that was "a bad thing", and I don't because of the trial. For as long as I have been recommending Schreuder people lose interest when they find out about the Martha connection.
At $125-$145 a gallon, you're not talking K-Mart.
T
This is my first visit to these forums. How nice to find such helpful people.
Robbie -- I appreciate the vote of confidence! The actual spray time is less of a concern to me than dry time (especially with oil), cleaning time, and (mostly) the time to set it all up. We are in high pollen here in Florida so I would hesitate to spray anywhere but in our somewhat cluttered garage. Then I'd have to find a way to set up all the doors so I can hit them all at once. It really seems like an intimidating amount of steps, especially because the baby is always one wail away. Finishing any project is a challenge. Sometimes it's less stressful to do a little bit each nap time. I do, however, agree with everyone that spraying would make for the best finish, so I will see if I can work it out.
Ted -- $145? Six or seven years ago I remember that it was about $75 a gallon. Frankly that has always made more sense to me than her deal with K-Mart. High-end oil would definitely fit in well with ... well, whatever image she has left. Anyway, I always heard the paint is sublime. Thanks for the link to a free sample. I will have to get one for sure, even if it ends up being just for fun.
It's still $75-$85 per gallon-- but it's what they call a euro-gallon; 2.25 liters.
T
Hi,
Finished painting a master bath set of cabinets sage green. It's a color not readily available but matched the Tile repair job I did as part of the remodel. I used DURON hi-gloss water based enamel mixed 50-50 with clear hi-gloss water borne poly. It was thin enough to spray the doors and drawer fronts in the shop and I brushed the carcass on site. I have used Flecto Diamond water borne poly but it is not being carried by the big box stores or WC. I really like the Flecto products, I refinished the cabinets in our place about 8 years ago with a hi-gloss white and they still look like new. No yellowing!
BTW, you can thin the suggested mix if it is to thick to spray. Best to spray in a horizontal plane, no runs and you can build the finish faster.
Benny
Professional cabinet shops almost never use water or oil based finishes. my suggestion would be to use what's called a matador post catalyzed lacquer. you mix up the lacquer with thinner to the correct viscosity then add the catalyst. It must be sprayed on but produces a wonderful finish, and is more durable than anything I have used and anything my paint guy knows of. I'm finishing some kitchen doors right now with this product and can take some pictures if you like.
Custom Cabinetry and Furniture
http://www.BartlettWoodworking.com
Benny and gecko, interesting information -- gives me more to consider. Are either of your approaches repairable? I am sure I haven't thought of all the different ways my sons will be able to damage my cabinet finish. The ability to touch up will be a deciding factor.
to touch up this finish you would need to respray the door, but you would not have to sand it first, so it can be done in about 20 minutes. This finish is very hard though, so I would think short of permanent marker it would clean up easily. it wont chip easily at all.
Custom Cabinetry and Furniture
http://www.BartlettWoodworking.com
SharonG,
Save enough of the paint mixture or mix a new batch. Lightly sand with 320 grit sand paper and re-coat a complete drawer face or door face. the good thing about using water borne is it does not slowly orange or yellow like oil or lacquer.
Benny
Sharon,
To avoid the yellowing, stay away from oil-base paints/finishes and nitrocellulose pigmented finishes. Instead, use a waterborne or solvent-based acrylic pigmented paint/finish.
If you're applying by brush, most paint stores carry an acrylic enamel that will give you good service (e.g., Sherwin Williams "ProClassic Acrylic Enamel").
Spraying is a great way to apply the finish, but there is a learning curve. I'd recommend HVLP/LVLP over airless; it's easier to control. There are a number of pigmented finishes available for cabinetry/furniture. Generally, they have to be applied by spraying; they dry too fast to be brushed. I like the pigmented Ultima Spray Lacquer from Target Coatings.
Paul
Now that is the third time I've heard the Proclassic enamel mentioned as an excellent cabinet paint.
I want to change the color of the vanity in the kids room from old oak to off white. I will try it and let all know if it turns out as claimed.
I'll third or fourth Pro Classic. No matter whether you like Uncle Sherwin or not, every company has its winners and losers. Pro Classic is a winner. I'm also a remodeler, and if trim is getting paint, that's all I use anymore. And if you get some rookie in the store that tells you that it's ok to brush, dope slap him. Airless, fine finish tip. At least for what you're doing.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I can clean my HVLP system in the same time I can clean two brushes. The set up time, including findind a plug socket, is like 10 or 15 minutes. You WILL save time using HVLP.
Mike
Go with HVLP. Pressure pot. Sherwin Williams Pro-Classic 100% Acrylic, and the Pro-Classic primer. Will not yellow.
Thin the primer and the paint 10-20%, or until you get a smooth lay out. This can be brushed, but I don't reccomend it. You could roll it also. Gives you a slightly stippled finish. Don't thin if you roll.
Two coats of primer. Sand the first. Touch up sand the second as needed. Watch the edges.
3-4 coats of top coat. First two 2-3 hours apart depending on the temp & humidity. Second two the next day. Give'm two days for the finish to completely cure, then install.
Well, it's good to know we're reaching somewhat of a consensus, at least one that meets my specific needs. I had heard of Pro Classic but only peripherally, since I automatically head to the Benjamin Moore dealer and haven't been to an SW store in several years. That definitely sounds like a winner.
And I think I'll spray. I will find a way to get it done. Can I come back and post pictures when I'm finished?
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