Replies

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Mar 22, 2004 04:29pm | #1

   Buzz

      Here's my take. If you do a lot of mortices, it's worth it. If not, hand cutting is the ticket. You need to keep in mind that work-bench you're working on has rather large M&T's. In essence a small timber framing job. You really need a 1" or + mortice chisel. Something not everyone will use often. If you don't have one, you will have to fight your way with a 1/2", etc., etc. for this job.

      The key is you're not going to do 1" plus mortices on a daily basis most likely. Once the bench is complete and you're back to normal size mortices, it will fall back to what I said in the first paragraph. If you do a lot of mortices, it's worth it~

   sarge..jt

   Proud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   Buzzsaw | Mar 22, 2004 04:43pm | #3

   Thanks Sarge,

     I thought about you a lot this weekend.  I bought a set of fairly reasonable Marples chisels and it includes a 1" mortising chisel.  I agree, the mortises I am making are 1" high by 3 1/2 wide by 3 1/2" thick as I'm making through mortises.  After I finished my mortises for the feet where the legs fit in I realized that I probably made them too close to each other.  So I'm going to re-do them and move the mortises about 2" in from the end of the feet (on both sides).  This should lead to more stability.  I am going to do a combination of your base and Frank Klauz's base as I like pieces of both designs.  I learned a lot this weekend and the best part is that I know I can do it now.  It may take a while but I'll have what I want at the end.  I'm kind of re-thinking the pine top (2X4s glued on edge) and am starting to think about making it hard wood.  I thought about the Perfect Plank option but I want to do square dog holes and using boards glued up on edge makes that an easier process.  I guess I could glue 2 boards to the edge of the plank, one for the dog holes and the other to abut up next to it.  Hey, I got to finish my base first and then I'll worry about the top. Thanks for all your help..Regards,

   Buzzsaw

1. 
   Alan | Mar 23, 2004 03:41am | #8

   Buzzsaw,

   Are you sure that Marples chisel is a mortising chisel?

   Alan

1. 
   Robbie | Mar 23, 2004 04:37am | #9

   Buzzsaw:

   Have had the new Delta for about  6 months.   Dealer threw it in when I got my Unisaw.  Can't tell you much about it, though, as I haven't removed it from the box yet. 

   I can hear the gasps of horror across the internet as I type this...

   Edited 3/22/2004 9:37 pm ET by Robbie

1. 
   forestgirl | Mar 23, 2004 04:51am | #10

   Robbie, you need someone to test it and give it a good workout before the warantee runs expires!  My shipping addres is......         LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

2. 
   Buzzsaw | Mar 23, 2004 03:39pm | #12

   Alan,

     My guess is that the 1" Marples chisel is not a mortising chisel.  I bought a set of (I think they were called 'Irwin') chisels and the guy at Woodcraft said that they used to be called Marples.  They have hard plastic handles and I'm afraid that I'm going to go right through the 1" chisel. What makes a chisel a mortising chisel? The one I was using was a 1" chisel from that set...I may give Woodcraft a call and pick up a mortising chisel as anything would be better than what I'm currently doing and I guarantee I'm going to go through the handle of this current chisel. Just so you know, I'm using a beech wooden mallet I also bought at Woodcraft for striking...Regards,

   Buzzsaw

2. 
   RickL | Mar 22, 2004 04:42pm | #2

   A bit off topic but are you framiliar with the slot mortiser?   Best and most efficient  mortiser you can get. Ideally used with loose tenons but you can do it the hard way with machined tenons if you really want to.  New unit from Grizzly G0540 is finally down to the home shop in price. $330 delivered. The machine should be available in  April but the technique has been in use for over 40 years mostly in Europe or folks over here that trained in Europe.

1. 
   Buzzsaw | Mar 22, 2004 04:44pm | #4

   Rick3ddd,

     I am not familiar with the slot mortiser but I will look into it. That is not a bad price...Thanks.Regards,

   Buzzsaw

2. 
   woodman54 | Mar 22, 2004 05:02pm | #5

   I just got a Delta mortiser from the Tool Crib. I am not very impressed with the 1/2" hole capacity. I wanted something bigger but it seems they only have 200 dollar or 800 dollar machines out there. I wish I knew about the new chain mortiser from Grizzly before, I would of waited. The table I am starting to build has a ton of large throug mortises in 4" and 2" teak . I will probably be using a plunge router and chisels to get the job done.  

3. 
   forestgirl | Mar 22, 2004 08:03pm | #6

   Buzz, I don't own a BT mortiser but I have followed the reviews and the chatter on-line about them for a couple years now.  There are definite differences between the different brands.  Quite a few reviews have been done, and I can drag a couple out if you want, but between Jet, Delta, Shop Fox the Shop Fox was the dead-on winner, both in reviews and with users for quite a long time.

   The thing is, Delta's new model has, I think, addressed some of the problems that Shop Fox solved, and I haven't seen/heard anything about how well they upgraded to meet the quality of the Shop Fox.

   Bottom line for me is that I would go with the Shop Fox until the verdict is in on the new Delta.  The SF has much more substance, a better fence, and is more versatile than the other main names.  There are a couple of other companies mentioned whose names I forget, but without going up a couple hundred $$, I don't think you'd get better performance.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
   Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   Buzzsaw | Mar 22, 2004 08:29pm | #7

   Thanks ForestGirl.  I'm not sure if I'm going to spring for one yet but it's nice to get more info on them. It's sounds like a real handy item to have in the shop and I have just the place for one...Regards,

   Buzzsaw

1. 
   TomFerreira | Mar 23, 2004 05:22am | #11

   Buzzsaw,

   I feel your pain. My bench was much the same with 12 MT joints to cut in hard maple and white oak for the base and four more for the top. I used the same method you are by hogging out most of the mortise with a forstner bit and squaring everything with a chisel. I bought a Sorby large corner chisel though and this made a big difference in making the corners. Good luck. we'll be here if you want to whine some more about it. Ha .... Ha.

   TDF

1. 
   Buzzsaw | Mar 23, 2004 03:42pm | #13

   Tom,

     The Sorby large corner chisel.  Is it a 1" chisel? I think it may be worth the investment.  I don't really mind making the mortises as I like working with hand tools but I just want it to go faster.  I need a new workbench! :)

   I think I saw the Sorby chisels at Woodcraft.  One other thing, I have to round off my tenons that I cut with the table saw and was thinking that I need a good set of files.  I have one that my Dad had and it is old and not very good. Any recommendations?Regards,

   Buzzsaw

2. 
   Buzzsaw | Mar 23, 2004 04:37pm | #14

   Tom,

     I just checked the Woodcraft website (and sent an email to Sarge about it) and was wondering if the Sorby 3/8" corner chisel will suffice.  The following is from Wodcraft's website.  A is $59.99 and B is $109.99. I'm hoping you will say A should suffice.

   A) SORBY Cabinetmaker's 3/8" Corner Chisel This traditional wheelwright's tool, also known as a bruzz, is a favorite of furniture makers, framers and carpenters. The precision machined 90º blade cuts accurate, square corners for mortises, hinges or for repair, in one quick step. High carbon steel blade is set into a tough boxwood handle. 10-1/4" overall. Requires honing before use.

   (B) 1" Corner Chisel Made for timber framing, this large bruzz is 18-1/2" long, has a 6" milled blade and 9" hardwood handle with double steel ferrules.Regards,

   Buzzsaw

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Mar 23, 2004 05:02pm | #15

   Buzz

      Haven't read the e-mail, but I'll try to answer a few questions. A mortice chisel doesn't have beveled sides as a bench chisel. (Paring, butt, etc.) It should have a thicker iron to take the shock of pounding. The handle should have a socket connection for impact absortion. It's usually a bit longer than a bench chisel for leverage and the angle is ground at a steeper pitch to help eliminate tip roll-back. The lower angle of a bench (25 degrees give or take) is too shallow for impact as you have with morticing.

      The corner chisel you refer to has a 90 degree turn. It is designed to keep the corners square. Handy, but not necessary. I would get one in the size that you usually do M&T's, not the timber framing size. You will only be using it a small amount compared to the smaller sizes you use for regular projects. I would get a 3/8". That will handle both 3/8" and 1/2" regular morticing. You don't have to have it. You could just clamp a block at the corner inter-section and use the side as a squre guide. Keep the regular mortice chisel flat to the guide face and you get the same results and saved the dough.

      I seriously doubt the Marples 1" you have is a mortice chisel. I bet it has beveled sides and around a 25 degree angle on the tip. You will pretty much use it up on your bench, but you can get to the finish line with it. I would re-grind and hone the tip to about 32 degrees. It will stay dull and the tip curled back at 25 degrees with the pounding you're giving that old boy. A problem you might incur is if it's the short chisel, the 4" depth on those bench legs won't allow you to go through. Even if it will clear that depth, you don't have much leverage with what will remain outside the mortice depth.

   BTW, if you or anybody is interested in a reasonably priced mortice chisel, Highland Hardware has the Crowns at about $10 per cheaper than the Sorbys. The steel is not 4 Cherries or Ashley Isles, but it's decent for the price. I do believe the steel is no less than the Sorby's.  I have them, use them and find them a good buy for the money. I have to re-sharpen a little more often, but that isn't a concern considering you don't spend ex-orbitatant amounts of time morticing in most cases.

   Off to pay the piper... ha.. ha...

   sarge..jt

   Proud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

   Edited 3/23/2004 10:08 am ET by SARGE

2. 
   Buzzsaw | Mar 23, 2004 06:14pm | #16

   Thanks Sarge for all the info.  Yes, I am sure the Marples chisel I have is not a mortising chisel..Regards,

   Buzzsaw

3. 
   TomFerreira | Mar 24, 2004 04:26am | #17

   Buzzsaw,

   I have the 3/8" and use it quite often.It's very handy when you are mortising or squaring off a hinge mortise...any time you have to make a 90 degree corner. As Sarge said it is not necessary but it does help.

   I'm not sure I understand your need to round off the corners of your tenons. Maybe just break the corner but if your mortices are square cornered your should not have to break them much. I ussually just knock off the corner with a paring chisel.

   Also, I don't think a mortising chisel will be any more helpful than a paring chisel for squaring up after drilling. They really are intended for hogging out the entire mortice. I used a 1/2" and the corner chisel to do all of mine.

   TDF

4. 
   Buzzsaw | Mar 24, 2004 03:13pm | #18

   Tom,

     I just picked up the Sorby 3/8" corner chisel that you mentioned for $59.99 at Woodcraft. I will try to use it today.  It does suggest that the blade be honed first though.  I think this will do the trick for me.  Thanks for all of your help and I'll let you know how the mortising goes.Regards,

   Buzzsaw

5. 
   Buzzsaw | Mar 25, 2004 02:45pm | #19

   I used the Sorby corner chisel last night and found it very helpful to clean up the corners.  I found that the mortising went much faster but it still is fairly slow. I have 4 mortises cut and I have 8 more left for my bench base.  Then I have 12 tenons to cut as well.  So, at this point, my bench base should be done by Labor Day :)

   Then it's onto my bench top and the vises which should be interesting. Seriously though, if I just took a day off I may be able to finish the base.  All of my woodworking gets done after work or on the weekends but typically just on the weekends.  I am chomping at the bit to finish this bench. One thing I'm sure of is that it will be solid...Regards,

   Buzzsaw

6. 
   Wolfman | Mar 26, 2004 12:28am | #20

   Does anyone have opinions about the mortising attachments you can put on a drill press? The reason I ask is, my father has an old Delta benchtop drill press that I am considering converting to a full time mortiser. I have also been using Fostner bits and chisels for my joinery. I figured it might be an inexpensive way to have a dedicated machine.

   Thanks,

   B.O.B.

7. 
   woodman54 | Mar 26, 2004 01:09am | #21

   I just got the Delta mortiser,I did not try to set up my drill press because of  the leverage needed to push a square chisel into oak or maple. It takes a lot of force even with a two foot handle. The price difference is not that big, 200.00 from Amazon. com with 4 drills vs 70.00 or more with out a motor. 

8. 
   RANGERP75R | Mar 26, 2004 06:37am | #23

   B O B

      My take is the drill press was not designed to provide a lot of down-ward torque. It is a machine that instead operates with finesse. You go torqueing hard-wood with it and pretty soon you got broken parts or a run-out produced from stress that will be a disaster when drilling.

      I would get the morticer if you do enough to warrant the cost.

   Regards...

   sarge..jtProud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

9. 
   Wolfman | Mar 26, 2004 03:47pm | #24

   Thanks Sarge,

   That seems to be the concensus. I do enough M&T to warrant the $200 expense.

10. 
    CharlieP | Mar 26, 2004 04:28pm | #25

    I use the mortise attachment on a Delta drill press.  Believe it or not, it works better on hard wood (lots of walnut, some maple, oak, cherry, birch, poplar) than it does on soft wood.  Plunge it fairly fast, or the waste jams in the chisel and burns. 

    I have the setup time down to 15 minutes, which still is high if you are going to do a lot of mortise work. 

    The $300 Grizzly machine mentioned earlier in the thread looks interesting - much like the $2,600 multirouter machine used by David Marks on Woodworks. 

    I have rambled in greater detail on the mortise options on my web site at http://www.plesums.com/wood/tips/mortise.html if you want more!________________________Charlie Plesums  Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood

11. 
    stjohns | Mar 26, 2004 04:20am | #22

    I say get your hand augar, backsaw, and appropriate sharpened chisel out and create the most useful joints that exists. Ok, use a efficient machine then. Sounds great but remember where you join wide piece's a coninuous mortise will cause weakness so try Fox and Double tenon style's. Keep a razor knive and wedge handy at all times!

    "When I first came to Washington, for the first six months I wondered how the hell I ever got here. For the next six months I wondered how the hell the rest of them got here."

4. 
   fertpro | Mar 26, 2004 04:54pm | #26

   Buzz,

   I agree with Sarge, if you're doing a good deal of mortice work the dedicated morticer is a good investment. But from the sound of your post it seems that it will be a future investment, in the mean time have you considered a router and jig setup? Considering the number and size of M & T joints you are cutting I would think that this would be the way to go. If you want to square up the corners a guide block with a smaller chisel would work just as well as a morticing chisel.

   As far as the drill press morticers are concerned they will work just as well as a dedicated unit but can be time consuming to set up. In the end you'd be happier with the bench top unit.

1. 
   Robbie | Mar 26, 2004 05:23pm | #27

   Sarge:

   Was wondering if you have any close up shots of the add on table you built for your Mortiser?  I have a Delta, but know already that it will need a better table and better hold down / hold in system.

   Best,

   Bob

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Mar 26, 2004 06:40pm | #28

   Rob

   Regards...

   sarge..jtProud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

   
1. 
   Robbie | Mar 27, 2004 01:02am | #32

   Sarge:  Thank you for posting again.  The only thing worse than my memory is my eyesight.  At the risk of being a P.I.T.A., do you have any close ups?

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Mar 27, 2004 08:04am | #33

   Robbie

      Will attempt. I have so many pics in my files, I'm about out of pie space their. I need to clean them out a bit. I will attempt to find one. After awhile the titles don't even tell me what they are. It's called "old-timer's disease". ha.. ha..

   The old American try...

   sarge..jtProud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

   
2. 
   Buzzsaw | Mar 26, 2004 07:13pm | #29

   Jim,

     Thanks for the advice.  I pretty much have decided to just drill and chisel the mortises.  I have finished 4 out of the 12 but after this weekend I hope to have the 12 whittled down (pardon the pun) considerably. Then it's onto creating the tenons as I have come up with an automated, but messy method, to do so using my crosscut sled and many kerf cuts to create the tenons.  It works pretty well but yields a lot of sawdust. Ah, a band saw should be next on my list of toys... Regards,

   Buzzsaw

1. 
   lynnroy | Mar 26, 2004 08:05pm | #30

   Before you start buying tools I recommend that you read the FWW article on selecting machinery. After I wasted a lot of money I came across the cited article. I now see the wisdom of purchased a good band saw before a table saw. I will try to locate the article. I think it was Mario Rodriguez.

1. 
   fertpro | Mar 26, 2004 10:32pm | #31

   Lynn,

   It was Gary Rogowski's " My five essential power tools" in fww Tools & shops issue#153.