Replies

1. 
   gpwest | Dec 05, 2003 06:43am | #1

   Dennis,

    If properly applied, glue alone will be sufficient.  Your main concern will be to keep the cabinet and frame from slipping out of position after the clamps are applied (the glue makes it slippery; that's one reason why many people use brads or nails thru the face frame into the cabinet sides, to keep them aligned).  Do a dry run with clamps (no glue) and check to be sure there are no gaps between the mating surfaces.     GP

     

2. 
   migraine | Dec 05, 2003 07:09am | #2

   In all of the 20+ years that I have been a cabinet maker, I have never had a faceframe delaminate from a cabinet carcass due to glue failure.  The theory that I was taught about nails was they were used to hold the frame tight against the plywood untill the glue dries.  Yes, at times I use nails, but usually I clamp on my frames with adjustable sliding C clamps(or whatever you want to call them).  Even If I do use nails, I only use then where the doors will hide the nail holes.  Plus, when or if I chose to use nails, I still clamp my frames on.  I also have and willl continue to biscuit spline frames to cabinet member when the need is justified.  Though, I rarely do it that way.

   Now, If you want to be a "true" woodworker like some of the other people feel  things should be done, then mortise and tennon every part, daddo all frames to the carcass, use hide glue, hand plane all your mouldings, and then finish the entire job with a french polish.  I could, but my time doesn't justify the end results.  Or at least until I have too much time on my hands with nothing else to do.

   Enjoy your project.

3. 
   ron61 | Dec 05, 2003 07:10am | #3

   A good glue joint is stronger than the wood- I have put a few face frames on cabinets in the past 15 years in the Cabinet Shop-  spread  the glue out covering the edges of the box- If I use nails" rarely" they are only to help aline the face frame till I get the clamps on and only shoot them where a door or trim will cover- use plenty of clamps - you need even clamp pressure on all joints.

   Glue blocks are good . It takes lots of bar clamps .  

   The glue holds the face frame on the cabinet  not nails. 

   How have you built your Face Frames? Are you building it on the Box?

   Glue is your Best Friend - it will Work Wonders

   Ron 
1. 
   DennisS | Dec 05, 2003 07:44pm | #8

   Hi Ron and everyone -

   Thanks for the reassurace with respect to gluing the frames on. In fact, after I submitted the question I decided to test out that kind of joint strength by gluing a scrap of the frame material to a scrap piece of plywood. After only a three hour set time in my cold shop it took several extreme blows with my framing hanger to shear the ash block off the plywood!

   Yes, I'm convinced.

   Ron - you aske how I'm building the boxes and frames -

   I began building the boxes first since I was going to install them without frames in order to get the stone guy in here to measure up for the tops. Then it occured to me that I needed to finish everything, too. Not wanting my house to smell like lacquer for three months I realized I had to complete each run of cabinets in its entirety (or would rather do it that way in order to finish them) so now I'm building the frames, attaching them and finishing them all in the shop.

   I do have a finish nailer but this ash is pretty hard stuff and the gun doesn't set the brads very well. I'm thinking this would be a proper situation to convince the life mate/bookkeeper that a pin nailer would be a worthy addition to my tool stable! (grin)

   None of the other cabinets are that much of a concern with respect to resistance to racking but this particular one, as I mentioned, is an island situation. As such, there's no attachment to the wall, etc., to lend resistance to racking. There's one false front panel under the cooktop on the front and the back will have false doors/panels that will be glued in place to add plenty of strength across the back.

   Someone asked about the joinery -

   I'm half lapping all the rails and stiles rather than using pocket screws or biscuits. In restrospect I should have used mortice and tenon joints on the end pieces to avoide the exposed joinery of the half laps. But I rationalize that by using it as an illustration of the frame members being actually 'joined' as opposed to merely butted together. My neighbor, a professional cabinet maker thinks I'm nuts. I suppose so..... (grin) .... but I'm having lots of fun and learning a lot.

   All the face frame material has been milled from 8/4 s2s ash planks ripped to produce quarter sawn faces for the rails and stiles. I have a dedicated router & jig setup for cutting the joinery. I probably have as much time in this one cabinet as most of you would have in an entire kitchen but .... as I say,,,, I'm having a great time.

   Thanks for all the great support for this and other projects I've asked about in this forum. You folks are the best!!

   ...........

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

4. 
   Telemike | Dec 05, 2003 08:47am | #4

   I make cabinets first. Then I make the face frames accurately. I mortise and tenon.

   I attach the face frames to the cabinets with biscuits. It's important to note that not all frame edges are even with a side of the cabinet and adjust the fence on the biscuit joiner accordingly.

   Biscuited joints align easily and are very strong.

5. 
   BG | Dec 05, 2003 06:09pm | #5

   Dennis,

   I'm kinda in the same position as you, making a cabinet for my son with 3/4" ply that will have 1"x3/4" oak strips attached to the front and doors attached to the oak strips.  Anyhow, it was probably unnecessary, but I ran a spline between the ply and the oak strip....I was all out of biscuits and did not feel like going to the store.  With the weight of the doors I did not want to take a chance on glue only.  Also, the spline is the cheapest alternative...and once you set up the TS or router it's almost fool proof. 
6. 
   notDusty | Dec 05, 2003 06:26pm | #6

            Hi Dennis ,

          Learn to trust your glue, when an adequate amount of glue is used the last thing that is going to happen will be the face frames falling off , trust us, and your glue. Ditto on a few nails in the correct spots on larger frames to keep it from sliding around on the box.If this is a masterpiece of a lifetime then forget the nails , and use a few extra clamps.Challange yourself to use as few as possible fasteners,clamping doesn't take that much time.

                          good luck  dusty

7. 
   ChipTam | Dec 05, 2003 06:27pm | #7

   I've always nailed and glued (actually, I use small stainless steel brads).  LIke you, I've never trusted that joint between the plywood edge and the solid wood frame using glue alone, especially considering the function the frame needs to perform (support doors, etc.).  However, from the other replies to your question, it seems I'm in the minority and that others have obtained good results with glue alone.

   I've been tempted to try my bisquit jointer for attaching the frame to the boxes but, as telemiketoo notes, some edges of the frame may not be flush with the edges of the boxes, which makes alignment somewhat of a headache.

   Chip

8. 
   jpwild | Dec 13, 2003 01:12pm | #9

   Glued, screwed and plugged!  Very simple, no clamps needed, and the plugs are, in general, hardly visible.  Just the way I do it. 

1. 
   MikeRooney | Dec 14, 2003 10:41pm | #11

   I did one like that many years ago - used trimhead screws and 1/4" plugs - didn't have any other way at the time - looked sharp!"If we' treading on thin ice,

   Then we might as well dance".

1. 
   JBD | Dec 14, 2003 11:12pm | #12

   Ditto on the glue alone.  But if you want to move into the pro league - use PL Premium polyurethane construction adhesive.  Much better bond to the end grain and void areas of plywood, as it expands upon cure and has higher cohesion than other PUR glues and is a fraction of the cost.  No need to prewet the joint as needed with yellow glue.

   This might be overkill, as yellow glue is pretty dog-gone good as is testified above, but if you ever try gluing solid wood face frames to the PB core of melamine, then PL is the only way to go.

   Don't believe me? test some and see.

9. 
   Pitt | Dec 13, 2003 04:28pm | #10

   Dowels! Very simple and cheap. Drill the back of the face frame, place your dowel locaters, put the frame on the box, tap with hammer, drill the box and you have alignment and holding power. With a plywood carcase I like to hold my face frame a little proud. Using a biscuit joiner can be a pain in the a## with this application. Using dowels in this application is almost foolproff. Good luck!