Hi to everybody,
am new to this website,and so far have been very impressed. I am a carpenter and live in England UK. It is interesting that although we all share the same passion for what we do,how different safety laws work here to the USA.
I didnt realise that on your table saws you dont have a riving knife that goes up and down when you change the height of the blade,instead you have a splitter that stays in the same position. Also you are allowed dado blades on your table saws and over here they are not allowed(dont understand why!).The way the manufacturer gets around this is to cut the arbour down so it will only take a single blade.
It would be interesting to import one of your table saws to see if they done anything to the arbour. Just seen the video on the saw stop,wow that looks impressive better to have to buy a new blade?than lose a few digits!!
From your side of the pond how has this(Saw stop)been received? Look forward to chatting to you all over the coming months.
Regards,Mark
Replies
From what I have read the SawStop is a great success. Insurance companies, schools and commercial shops look at it quite favourably. It is built to withstand that energy shock of the blade coming to a stop. Even when it is being powered by a 7HP motor.
BTW, welcome to the forum.
Cheers,
Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
welcome. the saw stop has been greeted kindly at least 9 out of 10 here. i agree that we should have riving knives as standard, and they are becoming more common on cabinet saws and contractor saws, at least for aftermarket.
I'm just sayin'
Welcome to the forum Mark. There are a few other Brits that hang around her; I am one.
The table saw debates have raged for years in this forum: I can't deny that in the distant past I regularly participated in some of the discussions. Nowadays I tend not to get very much involved in the 'table saw' debates. I've never been a fan of north American style saws as I'm sure some other long-term contributors here can testify. I used that style on and off for nearly ten years when I lived in the USA and never grew to like the dodgy mix of long fence, guardless blades and the never-ending wait as the blade gradually came to a halt after cutting the power.
Riving knives and the SawStop machine are the latest rage on the western side of the Atlantic. Riving knives of course are old hat to us Europeans along with the crown guard and the brake that stops the blade within ten seconds of hitting the stop button.
To answer your question about arbors, north American table saws simply have long arbors that will accept a dado blade, and European saws sold to Europeans don't. However, many of the European saws exported to north America are modified for that market to accept a dado blade through installing a long arbor at the time of manufacure. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Hi, the table saw debate will run and run here and in the states whether its the dado or riving knives or whatever guess it keeps someone in a job!
The saw stop is an impressive bit of kit and I suppose the built in overide will be the next discussion point. Thanks for answering the arbor question. Are you still in America? One of the things I like is the price of their tools,I have a lot of Dewalt gear and the price we have to pay here is scandulous!
Had a look at your website there is some nice pieces on there all credit to you.
Regards, Mark
From your side of the pond how has this.. I was raised by a Brit Nanny! God love her forever! I was in the USA at the time.
She was something.. Just what a child needed!
Hey Will,
wasn't implying nothing just a view from"over here". If I upset you in anyway I apologise.
Regards, Mark
Hell,
In the USA .. We send out young Men And Women to be not the same as they came or killed ever day!
I love my USA.. BUT even I have some standards,, USA military has NONE! That I remember!
Hell,
In the USA .. We send out young Men And Women to be not the same as they came or killed ever day!
I love my USA.. BUT even I have some standards,, USA military has NONE! That I remember!
Will,
Whatever on earth does that have to do with the OP, or woodworking even?
this is a woodworking forum, have the respect to not degrade a decent outlet for folks by bringing in misc. ya-ya.
Just in the door, and is that you already throwing your weight around?
It reminds me a lot of 'Seagull Managers'. They crash in through the office window uninvited, squawk like crazy, crap and flap all over the place-- and then depart in much the same way they arrived leaving all the havoc they've caused for the long term staff to sort out.
You're not one of those are you? Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
I agree.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Hello over there...I see your still packing that small knife moniker around. But as I see it you can pick splinters out with a small knife or cut you finger off with a Bowie Knife. Ha Ha!!!! "That's not a knife mate this is a knife." Crocodile Dundee
Edited 10/16/2008 1:00 am ET by Originalbart
They do just that here too. Land on the roof, squawk a lot for no apparent reason, make white / gray contributions and then leave. At least the avian variety just drops guano.BB
Coolbeans: Member since: Today!
Welcome! Now go sit in time out for an hour for being a pr!@k
Or, just go back to sawmill creek where you obviously came from.
If you bothered to read any of the threads, we like misc. ya-ya around here and we like Will George even more.
See ya
from orlando fl an been doing this for a paycheck for 29 yrs., built this computer, an thought i would talk with or listen to like minded folks, forgot theres all kinds of people in these forums not just woodworkers
More true is that there are all kinds of wood workers .
dusty
point taken,thanks for the reminder
work alot by self, so social skills have been falling by the wayside, but the girls still like me!
Now cool ,, I hope your nose is not growing .
Mark,
Welcome to the forum.
Can you use wobble dado blades?
I'm not a fan of the tablesaw in general or dado blades in particular, but I'm glad dado blades are "allowed" over here.
What about the use of radial arms saws in England?
I imposed a ban on them in my shop, since it seemed designed solely to cut my fingers off.
Also, what voltage do you use over there?
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Hi, we can use wobble blades but I believe they will only cut up to a 15mm trench.Dado blades are allowed on radial arm saws but as you know that limits what you can do with them. Again the legislation is stupid as you can do as much damage on a radial arm saw as a table saw armed with a dado blade!!!
I think one of the reasons as to why the dado blade is banned here is due to the blade not stopping in 10 seconds?
The voltage we use is 240volt ,50hz apart from site work where all power tools have to be 110volt through a transformer.
regards, Mark
Wow - that's really odd (no dado blades). From a statistics point of view, a router is the second most dangerous tool in the shop, and I'd think that'd be the second way to cut dados (at least with power tools). Perhaps it has something to do with the requirement for braking the blade within a certain period of time, and the mass of a stack dado makes this impractical?
And yeah, the lack of a riving knife has been a complaint from North American woodworkers for a number of years. The really weird thing about US society is that there's a veneer of "use at your own risk", but a court system that's anything but. Ladders, for example, have more stickers than a first grader at a birthday party.
Mark,
I'm totally confused; you can use a dado blade on a RAS, but not the table saw!
You're right, that doesn't make any sense.
I made exactly one cut with a dado equipped RAS, and said never again. Despite a somewhat unnatural fear of the table saw, I don't hesitate to use a dado on it, in fact, I'm going out in the shop to do just that.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Hi Mullion.... and welcome! I think the SS has been very well received here even though not my cup of tea. It will keep you from cutting your finger off but... doesn't do anything to stop kick-back. Basically the only way to deal with both and kill both birds with one stone is to go to a power feeder.
From a history stand-point.. riving knifes were here in the U. S. before Europe. An early American saw had one but was latter dropped before they became common-fare over there. When the Delta Uni-saw was introduced in 1937 it was a large improvement in many ways to what was then available.
So... other manufacturers basically copied it to the tee and all saws were pretty much Uni-saw clones from that point forward. But.. but.. the Uni-saw did not have a riving knife and the other manufacturers followed suit and copied it almost exactly. It's been that way every since until now when a new law was passed. As of January 1 of this year.. every newly designed saw has to have the riving knife. All older designs have to be re-engineered to have one by 2017.
Many are adding the feature as it is the new rave over here and you have to keep up with the competitor. So.. you will probably see them on most saws here within the next year of so IMO.
I have a 5 HP TS with a splitter. I modified the splitter to accept a crown guard and use a plastic shield attached to the crown for safety and dust. I rip on my TS with a SCMS getting the call on all cross-cuts and angles. My saw has the standard long fence.. but I added a simple and home-made half fence to the face of the long fence.
I also use what I call a spring-board left of blade to provide a stop in case of kick-back to the left and it also acts as a feather board left to maintain pressure to keep the stock pushed to the fence. I use home-made push stick in various lengths and configurations.
I sold my dado set and use an alternative as I don't personally relish the idea of two blades on the outside with few teeth and basically gang cutters in the center of those punching stock out. So.. even though I can use one.. I simply don't chose to and won't as there are alternatives.
Click on the pictures below for the set-up...
Regards...
Sarge..
Hey Sarge - Nice engineering. Where'd you get the basket guard (or is that also home-built)?
The plastic large-mouth gaurd is the one from a Penn State over-head. They sell it separately for $24.95. I used (after a bit of modification on my BS) the same one on my Uni-saw also.
Sarge..
Very interesting. Like a lot of (dumb) woodworkers out there, I chucked the useless plastic guard that came with my Unisaw and bought a separate splitter. Running the naked blade doesn't make me all that happy, but I compensate somewhat by never cutting anything without a feather board, and I expand Marc Adam's rule about "never closer than 3" from a blade" to about a foot and a half with push sticks.
Oddly enough, I feel a router table's a bigger danger. I've caught myself once or twice trying to brush sawdust from the table with the router spinning. That realization was enough to get me to turn off the tool and leave the shop for the day.
Do you see those "Red Lines" on my TS, DK? Having an automotive restoration back-ground I call them the same thing you call them on an auto tachometer.... "Red-line". Mine is set for no closer than 8" from the blade then a push-stick gets the call to finish the cut.
What happens on an auto tach if you insist on exceeding Red-line? The engine decides to float a valve which leads to dis-membered rods.. cranks.. etc.
What happens on my TS if I insist on exceeding Red-line? Absolutely nothing of major consequence as I simply DON'T EXCEED RED-LINE nor will I run the saw without some type of guard with the exception of box joints which are done with a miter gauge jig with stock clamped in and fingers nowhere to be found by that nasty blade. ! I have never dropped a finger yet by adhering to those rules. ha.. ha...
Sarge..
Indeed - you and I have similar philosophies, though I've not gotten the courage yet to paint my saw. I don't like runnign the saw without a guard, but haven't found a decent solution that both allows me to use the saw for what it's designed for and give reasonable protection. In my opinion, the clear plastic swing-up things that come stock on saws are worse than useless - they're dangerous.
Funny thing about Marc's rule about no less than 3" from a spinning blade - he's supposed to be a safety guru (and I've no reason to dispute that), but I consider his rules in some cases as dangerous (and yeah, watching Norm do things on the New Yankee Workshop gives me the willies - I"m very surprised he can count to ten).
As far as Marc's rules of 3"... to each his own as we all have to set our own guide-lines. I chose eight using my own experience and just common sense from what I have seen to apply my 8" rule. I have much respect for Marc but just because one is an excellent WW and well known amongst them does not necessarily make them right 100% of the time IMO.
I have never seen Norm's show as I don't do TV often with the exception of History Channel and related and college and pro football. I did get to meet him at IWF and he's a nice guy. What his safety practices are I am not award and a good chance I may never be. :>)
Regards..
Sarge..
Morning Sarge ,
No dado , what's up with that ?
I suppose the router is your choice to make dadoes , if I had the room and could afford it I would use a panel router , Her Saf makes a nice smaller model . But as for the last 30 years I still dado on the TS , once in a great while I have an application for the RAS with dado , not my favorite and imo much more problematic then the dado on the TS , UK ruling seems to make little sense .
There is always more then one way to do the same thing lucky for us but I would be really put out if I could not dado on the TS .
is that stock feeder on the way yet ?
regards dusty
Dusty,Them dados is dangereux - be sensible like wot we Brits are and use the nice router agin a straight edge to make housings (as they are correcty called, shurely). You know it makes sense! You lads - you will play with dangerous toys such as dado blades, skateboards and guns! I think you should all get the slipper on yer leg and be sent to detention for the evening, where you may be usefully lectured on safety in the shed and shown a series of gruesome finger-amputation pictures to "get your mind right", as your saying goes.Sarge has the right idea, apart from his belief that riving knives don't dramatically reduce kick-back. That plank needs marshalling when moved down the TS. They have a mind of their own, you know, so can't be trusted and must be strapped down as we dismember them.As to the evil RAS - only Philip can tame such a thing. But he is used to disembowelling large and powerful machines so they're all very much afraid of him and do as they're told. Nevertheles, one day his RAS might very well climb off the bench and eat a whole limb, just to show it can. Lataxe, a product of the nanny state and so still alive, whole and happy.
"Nevertheles, one day his RAS might very well climb off the bench and eat a whole limb, just to show it can."
Nay nay , lud. Too 'eavy like... Anyways, Ah never put limbs in the line of cut.Philip Marcou
Router after I had a dado gang cutter hit a knot and throw stock up a while back. Fortunately I was running a crown gaurd. I sold the dado set about 3 days after the fact. I'm not advocating everyone not using one.. but a personal decision on my part for the reasons I stated earlier. I really don't like the same snake biting me twice. :>)
Sarge..
Hi Sarge, thanks for the welcome and the info on riving knives.
Thats a pretty impressive set up you have on your table saw. Judging by various posts that I have read on this site you have a pretty big choice of table saws available too buy in the states. The one thing I like about your saws is they seem to all come with a polished cast iron top,where as over here they have only been available with cast tops in the last couple of years apart from the ones in the "professional shops".
It was interesting to read that you sold your dado set,guess they are not all they seem and if its dangerous then its got to go!
Regards, Mark.
Mark ,
A CNC would be best ,,, but a dado set can be accurately adjusted to a proper fit for off sizes un like router bits , it is quick and clean and set up is easy .
A router can do a wonderful job against a straight edge or better yet panel router .
If we condemn each method we hear of someone getting hurt at then we shall be reduced to hand tools once again , he he , no really just because we fell off the bike and got hurt or got in an auto crash we don't stop the process .
Common sense must always take first place with each operation and in some cases some boards want to be treated differently . Machining large cuts or details in knotty areas is always risky , even with a router .
regards dusty
First.. thanks for the compliment on the set-up, Mullion. I just don't personally care for a dado set because of the way it is made as I don't think it is the right tool for the job. A dado set has two actual cutter blades on the outside but.. those cutters have very few teeth. The center blades are basically gang cutters IMO that punch wood out instead of sever it.
Too wide.. too deep.. hit a knot or wild, squirrel grain with gang cutters and "away we go" on a wild ride. With that said.. I do own and use a Freud box cutter set. Basically two blades that if faced with print side out give exact 1/4" cuts. With print side in they give exact 3/8" cuts. Each blade has around 40 very sharp carbide teeth with the set being 8" in diameter or equivalent to around 60 T on a 10" blade.
If I were going to cut dadoes on a TS.. this is what I would use. I could get exact 1/4" and 3/8" cuts as mentioned. If I want 1/2" or 3/4" I would simply use a double pass. The teeth are ground flat and they leave a perfectly flat bottom that requires no cleaning with my medium shoulder plane.
And if I did do dadoes on the TS.. I would use a block of hard-wood clamped to the fence over the stock to allow the stock to pass under. I will not use my TS without a guard period with the exception of box joints done on a miter jig with stock clamped in.. and I do laps with that cutter set along with tenons. But.. I use the 1 1/2" thick over-head guard I mentioned when doing so.
Sarge..
hey sarge, afternoon, that is the dado set i use everyday in my shop. have a total of three sets, two for use an usually ones out for sharpening,. its an excellent set, an while we r on it the reason i dont use the plastic saftey guards or spitters is i have only one saw (powermatic) an i'm continually going from one operation to another, ie ripping ,crosscutting,dadoing,ect. both in hardwoods an ply all within the same hour on a regulr basis. the main thing to remember when dadoing an rabbiting is this,the blade is incase in wood an with good proper set-up, technique, an attention to the sound of ur saw, proper feeding of ur material, use of a dado set is the same as any technique in woodworking, if you use your brain...ur comment was very articulate , an hope to here more from you.
My biggest concern with a dado is not really technique and set-up as "I" take the time to do it right. My biggest concern is the fact that you are presented the opportunity to take say... a 3/4" wide cut 1/2"- 3/4" deep all in one cut which I have seen many do. Depending on the stock density and it's content of knots I would never take more that 1/4" in what I considered radical on that wide a cut and no more than 3/8" on what I considered stable.
From what I have seen I think most don't have the patience to take several passes or.. in a situation where a dead-line might give you inclination to do so as in commercial. I am not advocating that standard stacked dado sets should not be used by everyone... simply stating why I don't use them personally and probably never will again.
But... I am slowly going back to some dadoes on my TS with the addition of the Freud Box Cutter set as it has the teeth I feel is required and the way it is made you cannot take more than 3/8" in width at one time. And I will go deeper than 3/8" with it as it has enough teeth side by side to actually sever wood. But by increasing the width I probably would not do more than a 5/8" deep cut at once as is basically the maximum I do use it to cut box joints.
But.. this all boils down to a personal thing as to what we will and will not do in reality...
Regards...
Sarge..
been pretty busy, you folks have probly gone on to other topics by now, but one last addium tothe dado's cutting, i almost always use only 2 depth settings 1/4 an 3/8, which r multibles of 3/4, 1/4 to set face frames, 3/8 to set bottom,side, an back panels. an like you i wouldn't an don't full depth cuts past these settings,thanks for your time,enjoyed it
I suspect that if you hit a hidden knot with a 3HP router you are in for something of a surprise also. I am thinking of two wrists holding said router. I use a Freud 608 dado set and with the appropriate hold downs I think I am less exposed to accidents knot wise than with a hand held router. BTW, those "gang cutters" produce a glass smooth flat surface. Like a three bladed jointer :-) Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
I think "gang cutters" have a place Peter.. just not in my shop! I fully endorse them on a 60" wide sweep cutter pulled behind a John Deere tractor. I worked ground maintenance at a Golf Course during HS and used them often to cut rough outside the fairways. They did an excellent job doing just that.
We did use reel mowers that got blades sharpened twice a week on the "putting greens" though. I suppose there was a reason we did not use the "gang cutters" to cut the "greens" but being a WW and not a golfer... I have no clue what it is? ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
BTW.. you're right about the router. I use my Milwaukee 3 1/2 HP in a table and really don't fancy the idea of hand held with it. The Milwaukee 2 1/4 HP does a nice job for that but you best believe I have taken the proper balanced stance.. separated myself from the stock.. holding on for dear life and simply take several passes as you can do that if you don't work with dead-lines. Dead-line is as nasty a word as knots at my combination wood shop.. beer tavern.. male recluse.... :>)
Regards...
Sarge.
"As of January 1 of this year.. every newly designed saw has to have the riving knife. All older designs have to be re-engineered to have one by 2017."What is the source of this? I don't keep up with all news to this is new to me. Tablesaw Police?Burt
Mr Bronxe Age,Take note and pay attention! This is the TS polees speakin' at yew! Get that rivin' knife on or suffer the consequences (subjection to ritual kickback abd plank-impalement, as an example to all wrong-thinking TS buyers).You have bin warned.Lataxe, agent of Nanny, who knows best.
I believe that it comes from the UL folks. I get the impression that it may not be illegal as such, but they won't put their sticker of approval on one if it doesn't comply. Could be wrong here.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
>> I believe that it comes from the UL folks. I get the impression that it may not be illegal as such, but they won't put their sticker of approval on one if it doesn't comply. Could be wrong here.Yes, it is a UL requirement for riving knives. Securing a UL label is voluntary but for all practical purposes, many schools, companies and government agencies have rules that require UL labels for any power equipment.Howie.........
My source was Scott Box.. president of Steel City Toolworks, Burt. I am not sure what his source is but I can assure you he intends to follow the policy according to him. I believe (?) the originating source was revealed to you in a post after you posted to me but... I am not sure of the true source.
Keep in mind it has nothing to do with a saw without one that has already been sold and in use. Simply a mandate to manufacturers with the grand-father clause that old design has to be changed (or most likely dropped as you have to design much different to put a riving knife on) by 2017.
If you would really like to know Mr. Box's source.. I can find out on Monday. I have his cell phone # but under no circumstances would call him over the week-end for a matter of this priority. Let me know if you want the originating source.
Sarge..
Jeez Sarge, I know you use your tools a lot, but you could never tell it by looking at them. My stuff didn't look that nice when it was new! Nice set up.
Oh well, I guess that is why I don't post pictures of my shop here.
Rob
The TS is a new 5 HP Steel City Industrial, Rob. I sold my Uni-saw I paid $999 re-conditioned for in a scratch my back.. I'll scratch yours deal and got $850. Steel City ask me to come down 3 days the week before IWF here in Atlanta to help 3 others assemble their machines before the show. The deal was I would get that saw for manufacturers cost.
They called me a few days latter and ask if I would demo machines during the show and the deal was I load the saw and take it home with no $$ exchanged. What time you want me there?
After each project (a new coffee table finished curing yesterday) which is on average about every 6 weeks... I wax tops on machines and touch up planes and chisels. In the shop I stop every 4 hours or so and blow it out with a leaf blower by starting in the back and worked to the two large open doors. And I pretty much put things up after every days session.
But.. pictures are deceiving somewhat. I have some mutant spiders that live in the shop and they can replace cob-webs as fast as you can use a broom head to knock them down. We have an understanding at this point... as long as they build out of traffic areas.. what they do on their side of the fence is their business and what I do on mine is well.. mine. It works for me as I see no immediate threat.
I do have a cyclone.. a DC and 6 shop vacs in key locations. I suppose that eliminates the pita from PITA of that task. So.. all in all I really prefer to keep dust and clutter manage-able the same in the shop as up-stairs where the First Lady dictates that with an iron fist. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
I may have some of the details wrong, but the development of the Saw Stop was supposed to go like this.
- Inventor develops Saw Stop, patents it and numerous variants for numerous power tools and locks up the technology.
- Inventor goes to major manufacturers and tries to get them to sign on, with a royalty of course. Manufacturer's don't like being extorted (picking a nice, neutral word without connatation :-), and wait for the first of them to blink. Tablesaws are inherently dangerous, putting on this item might open them up to lawsuits. Nobody blinks.
- Saw Stop tries to get the government to enact a law _requiring_ it on all saws. (See royalty, above). Law does not become enacted.
- Saw Stop goes into business for themselves. Capitalism.
Your source for all those "details"?
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
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