I’d like to add a jointer to my tool collection, but have limited floor space. Does anyone make a quality bench top model? The only I find is a Delta Shopmaster with a flimsily looking fence. Are there decent models out there?
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Replies
Would a small jointer do any good? One that is four feet long (minimal size to my thinking) only holds about 2 feet of the board for reference (initially all on the in-feed table, half the total length of the machine, and eventually all on the outfeed table.) Likewise, the width of the knives is the widest board you can flatten - and it seems that far too many boards are just wider than my 6 inch cutters. I wish I had gotten the 8 inch jointer (or larger) with a longer bed. Personally I wouldn't waste the shop space on a bench-top unit.
Since there are other ways to straighten a board - table saw, router, etc., - you might want to use the alternate ways. Or maybe if you only work with small pieces of wood....
________________________
Charlie Plesums Austin, Texas
http://www.plesums.com/wood
The best bench top unit I can think of is a Lie Nielsen #7. It's portable and cordless too :) Handplanes are probably the way to go if you don't have a lot of space, as a small benchtop jointer is severely limited as to what it can do. You may want to look at a portable power planes to go along with this to speed things up a bit, as handplaning is a lot more labour intensive. There are also several jigs you can build to put straight edges and flat faces on your wood.
Depending on how limited your floor space is, and how much $$$ you want to spend, a combination jointer/planer might be a good option to save some space without sacrificing capability. Or if you really want a small, decent quality jointer, you could look in the used market for a vintage machine, as there were some decent benchtop machines made back around the 50's. You will still have limited capacity though.
hope this helps
Andrew
Andrew,
You mentioned using a power planer for jointing, and I'm curious about this. I've been using my router table for jointing. It does a great job, but I have to set it up again for every project, which is time-consuming. However, I don't want to buy a jointer -- lack of floor space and I just don't like them!
Has anyone had experience using a power planer for jointing? Is this really possible? I'm thinking about the Festool power planer, which is really smooth.
Matt,
I think Rob Millard uses a power planer frequently.
Power planers have their uses and can be used with a fence to square up the edge of a board but their short sole won't straighten out the edge of a board any better than a short hand plane. It can be done by using a straightedge to locate the high spots and then selectively planing them off, but it isn't a substitute for a jointer.
John W.
John
up till about a year ago my principal jointer was a Makita 1100 power plane. I'm not in the shop so can't measure it but the current model has a 16 3/8 sole, this is about mid way between a #5 and #6. If used like a hand plane, i.e. taking very shallow cuts, it joints just like a hand plane.
BTW if a #7 at 22in long is a respectable length for a jointer palne, why do the tables of a power jointer need to be much longer than this?
Ian
ian,
They need to be longer to support the weight of the board. When using a hand plane the plane moves not the board. Jointer works the opposite. If you've ever tried to run an edge on an 8' board using a 4" jointer with a bed less than 3 ft long the situation becomes painfully obvious.
Mack
Matt, you won't get a perfect edge from a power planer. I would compare it to a scrub plane. It will take off lots of wood in a hurry, but then after words, i would use the "relatively" straight edge against the fence of my tablesaw and rip the two edges perfectly straight. I have a jointer now, but before i did I managed to get by with my tablesaw
Andrew
Do what I did. When I moved into a much smaller workshop I racked my brain trying to figure out in what configuration to arrange my tools. I already owned a delta 6" floor model (which has performed reliably for many years and has a good heavy cast fence). I finally would up cutting 2 1/2" from the bottom of the legs of the jointer and snugging it up next to the left hand side of the tablesaw. The lowered height allows me to cut plywood and other wide material without the fence mechanism of the jointer getting in the way. I'm a little over six feet tall and I didn't find the lowered height of the jointer to be uncomfortable to my back or unsafe for working. The feed direction of the tablesaw and the jointer are opposite one another and I find this very convenient and time saving because the tablesaw top not only serves as an area to organize the different boards that I am jointing but boards that are already jointed can be stacked on the table saw ready for ripping to width (this is usually the next step anyway). Since moving to this small shop I moved again and I now have a much larger work area. I left the setup the same because of the convenience of working in this way. Of course if your shop space is so limited that you also have a bench top tablesaw ignore everything I just said :)
Thank you for the good thoughts....
I do have a stationary contractor's table saw taking up the only open space in the center of the shop, the idea of pairing down the jointer legs is interesting. (In my basement...Wouldn't you know it, this only open space is also occupied by a 4-inch support column. It adds another challenge.)
Regarding the size of the jointer mentioned above, I have a dedicated 13in planer. (It is on a small box with casters and moves under the benches lining the walls when not in use.) I need the joiner only for putting an edge on the boards sufficient for laminating into larger panels. I am unfortunately not skilled with hand planes. I have never used a power hand plane, but can not imagine that I could hold and move the thing such that I could get a good edge at a perfect 90 degrees from the face. Is this possible? Is it probable?
My current motivation is for a series of raised panel cabinet doors. When I laminate now, I rarely get the perfect fit I'd be looking for on this project. I figured a small bench top jointer was the way to go, but the board length restriction is an issue I'd rather not need to deal with in the future.
Thanks
If you're only doing small work, consider one of these 4" jointers on the used market before you buy a benchtop. Yes, it is small, but if the restriction is on size, I'll take one of these long before any of the bench-top styles, and you can find them for much less if you're patient.
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/at.asp?webtag=tp-knots&guid=30FAC52A-E5BB-44BD-B2F5-4C8E15A7A2A8&frames=no
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/at.asp?webtag=tp-knots&guid=FC2DC424-20FA-46D3-93E7-3204BB4B7C64&frames=no
Delta must have made about a zillion of these, starting in the 40's or so. The one shown in the picture is probably from the 70's, like mine, but they didn't change virtually since they started making them.
But if you can find a way to squeeze a 6" long-bed or larger into your shop, that would be the way to go. It can be tricky trying to straighten an edge with such short tables, in my experience.Be seeing you...
>>
16104.6 in reply to 16104.5
If you're only doing small work, consider one of these 4" jointers on the used market before you buy a benchtop.
I have a 6" Delta jointer that looks almost exactly like the pictures you posted. It was made in 1946. I got along with it and a few hand planes for years before I upgraded. Although it is only 32" long overall it works fine on stock up to 6 feet or so. It's all cast iron,very solid and heavy -- keeps its adjustments virtually forever.
Even though I now have a decent long bed jointer in "perfect" adjustment, I still end up using a jointer plane and improvised shooting board for final cleanup when edge jointing stock much over 8 feet or so in length. Long boards just move too much unless the grain is perfectly straight.
The little jointer is in Kansas City and not being used if anyone in the area needs a small jointer. Price would be $150, and you'll probably be able to pass it on to your grandkids.
Michael R.
Edited 2/7/2004 7:16:38 PM ET by Woodwiz
I have a 4" just like the one in the link I posted (I don't know where I got that photo), which I bought new in the early 70's. It's a very solid little machine, though I could use something bigger as I've gotten into larger projects. That 6" you have I would consider an upgrade. Too bad I'm so far away; I think that's a very reasonable price for that machine. I've seen ones like in the link go for $200 on ebay.
I rather like the old iron (my lathe is a 1944 Delta, which started life in a war plant that my grandfather worked in). And Delta still carries parts for it.Be seeing you...
For what you're going to wind up spending for one of these little benchtop jointers you would be able to buy yourself a very nice jointing plane. Have a look at the big stanley (22") in the lee valley catalog. you may think that it requires some age old magic to be able to use one of these large handplanes but I think you could surprise yourself. Both work on the exact same principle, one uses a motor and the other doesn't. I can garuantee you that the machined surface of a good jointing plane is every bit as straight (if not even more acurate) then that bench top jointer. The reason that you buy a good quality handplane is because of it's accuracy and ease of use. If you don't know how to sharpen it, have some one else sharpen it for you. Woodworking is often much more enjoyable when you don't have to listen to a motor to get things done. Take a risk and buy yourself a good handplane (Don't buy a cheap one!!!). Then buy yourself $40 of pine at the Home Depot and practice, practice, practice.
When you're glueing up panels for doors, cabinet sides, tabletops or anything else remember that perfect right angle edges don't matter (they just have to be straight and a good hand plane does that all by itself with you as the motor). If you take the two pieces of wood that you want to glue together and lay them on your bench with the two soon to be jointed sides touching one another, fold them together like a book with the spine facing upward. joint these two edges at the same time and their complimentary angles will fold back down against one another to create two edges that are perfectly parallel.
You may not think so but once you gain confidence with a hand plane you won't even bother turning on the jointer for several tasks because the hand plane is faster.
Have fun.
For what you describe, I would spend a tiny portion of the cost of a jointer on a good blade and spend an hour or two to align your saw. I use a WoodWorker II and when my saw is well aligned (as it normally is) I get edges that are ample for glue joints - often even better than on the jointer.
I hear there are other blades that are good enough for glue joints, and may only be half the cost of the woodworker II blade, but my experience is with that great blade! And if you are only edge jointing (not working on the surface of the boards) I don't think you need a jointer at all.________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
At your advice, I spent some time looking at my table saw and realized I've got some terible runnout. This is certainly contributing to the poor quality edges. I have a decent blade on it.
I have no clue if this is fixable. Any advice?
Give me an idea about what kind of tablesaw do you have, what kind of fence?? This will greatly determine the fix.
Brian
I am using the term runout to describe blade wobble. I am observing the blade after turining the saw off and it slows to an observable speed.
The saw is a 10" direct drive Craftsman model #113.226680
Thanks
Define what you are calling runout, I've seen the term misused to cover a number of different problems.
John W.
I know how to align my saw, but I don't know about the Craftsman. I have also heard that direct drive carries all the play in the motor to the blade, so is hard to align.
I would start with the owner's manual... or advice from someone with a similar saw.
________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
I too have a Craftsman. OK saw but think I'll have to upgrade if I end up serious. I have no lateral (side-side) movement in my blade. The saw in the store did and I informed the salesman that if my saw was the same I'd be back.
First thing I'd do is unplug the saw. With that done I'd grab the blade where it comes up thru the throat of the saw and see if it wiggles back and forth. If it does, there may be a bearing or shim worn out in the drive assembly. Probably one of the designed-in failures guaranteed to happen to almost any Sears product. They'll probably have four or five in stock at your local repair center.
Obviously before condemning the gearcase you'd want to make sure everything is tight and true. If there's no movement in the drive mechanism then check the blade for excessive runout, although I think a bent blade would cause more than just a poor cut.
Do you have the manual that came with the saw?
My brother in law had the same trouble with a Craftsman radial arm saw. Wouldn't cut straight, couldn't get rid of the play. Think he ended up with a new saw out of the deal.
Anyhow, that's about all I can tell you. Good luck.
Unfortunately, no owner's manual is available. I picked-up the saw from a neighbor maybe five years ago. He didn't have one then and still doesn't.
I did as suggested and tried to wiggle the blade, but it seems tight. If I remove the insert and reach down a grab the arbor, I can lift it slightly. I do not expect that is a problem, however, as the whole moter moves and this play probably just represents the tolerance in the threads to raise and lower the blade.
For years I had a little AMT bench top jointer. I got it to work and it was usefull. It was a little dangerous trying to run a long board over it. If you can find a place that will mill your wood for you, I'd probably not buy a little jointer.
Frank
NClaQuer,
I've got many of the same issues your dealing with....no space...and two 4" lolly columns (built some nice shelves around the columns) ...and therfore have no space for a jointer. I do use hand planes to flatten the face side, it's not difficult and is a very small part of the project. For those of us who are space challanged, we really do need to think hard about not giving up all our space to only one aspect of a project. We need space to stage the cut wood, perform the joinery aspects, assemble and finish. In additon, this is a hobby, I want to be able to cut curves and turn wood and make moldings so I need to save space for the bandsaw, lathe and router table.
Remember all you really need to do is remove the twist, cup, etc. and get the board relatively flat...so there is no rocking..and you can test that on the table saw. Putting it through your planer (both sides) should finish the job. I use an old Stanley #3 which I have set up as a scrubber. After the scrubber I use the #5 and then the #7....depends on the length of the board. Edge jointing is even easier...running it through the TS with a straight edge against the fense.
Someday maybe I'll figure out a way to squeeze in an 8" jointer, but right ow the workbench and planes work fairly well...try it, you'll be surprised.
Edited 2/3/2004 11:07:51 AM ET by BG
Add my voice to those advocating hand planes instead of a small BT jointer. Just because you aren't skilled with them now, is no reason to avoid developing that skill! I barely knew which end to hold onto when I first started using them... but it took surprisingly little time to learn how to make perfect glue joints. I learned it all from books, FWW, and practice.
A Record #7 served as my jointer for years. I did reluctantly buy a power jointer when I turned the hobby into a business. The time differential is very large! But if you only do this occasionally, it's worth your time to learn to use handplanes. You'll be amazed at the invisible joints you can make and then you will be even prouder of the project.
Same is true for face preparation - handplanes do a great job, they just take longer.
Whatever you do, avoid the little Delta BT jointer with the flimsy fence. Even the sales guys in the store wouldn't try to sell me one of those."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
NCLAQUER
I have the B-T Delta in question, pre-Shopmaster. It is quite adequate for the home hobbyist, doing mostly small projects. I seldom joint anything longer than 30". and haven't found the fence to be a problem, within my scope of indentifying a problem. I bought it for the price, not necessarily the size. I understand the price now is about $200 which I think is a bargain.
That being said. I have B-T drill press, sander, grinder, jointer, planer, and formerly a table saw. I think the idea that you are going to save space is a false economy. You think you are going to save space by storing all these tools away, and hauling them out, setting them up, cleaning them and putting them away, each time you use them. You actually end up leaving them semi-permanent, on whatever available space you have. Or you end up making more benchtops for them.
If doing again, I would opt for a floor model jointer, especially if I had a long term project like yours. Look for ways to economize space in arranging the space you have. If nothing else, the B-T will work if you don't rush it.
Do you plan on only making small projects (music boxes and file card holders size) then a bench top can be an answer for you... Grizzly makes one as do a number of other importers..
If you plan on longer stuff, cabinet size etc. then you'll need one with an infeed table as least as long as the board you want to joint.
If space is a premium try my appraoch.
Put everything on wheels! Roll out the equipment that you plan on using, drop the stops do the cuts(whatever) and roll it back out of the way..
I have a 12 inch cabinet saw, a 8 inch jointer, a 3 hp shaper, a 14 inch bandsaw, a 20 inch planner, etc. etc. jammed cheek by jowl and roll things out as I need them.. No way could I ever have enough space to dedicate one area to one tool.. Evan the work bench is moble and yet nothing moves when set down..
Over the past 25 years, I've had three jointers. Started out with a used 4" floor model Craftsman (King-Sealy).....not a bad little jointer given it's small size. Then bought a used 6" J. C. Wallace jointer. That was a wonderful jointer......very heavy direct-drive (smooth, no vibration, at all) and about 60 years old. Would have kept that Wallace forever except for the very short table length (around 36"). Now have a Delta DJ-20 8" which I purchased new about 5 years ago. It's ok and does the job but lacks the style of my old Wallace. Anyway, there are some good used small floor-model jointers out there. They can't joint really long boards but for most stuff they work fine.
Chip
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