Is there a place for exposed dowel joinery in Fine Woodworking? I posed this question a few weeks ago and the general conclusion was, “Only when it is absolutely necessary. And never when a better joint is possible (no short cuts).”
Last week, I visited the Yale Furniture Study (see my post in the General Discussion folder). There were a FEW examples of exposed dowel joinery, as shown in the photos. They were only on the doors of secretaries and similar pieces. Of the 20-30 secretaries there only 2-3 had exposed dowel joinery.
I discussed this with the assistant curator. The conclusion is that cabinetmakers had selling points then, as now. A cabinetmaker who stressed strength and durability over high style might pin the mortise and tenon joints at the corners of doors with an exposed dowel. When the doors have glass panels, likely to crack if the door shifts, the use of dowel-reinforcement is more likely.
That’s just my opinion. I might be wrong.
Replies
In "cornercabfed01door" are the muntins (or are those mullions?) actually morticed that far into the stiles? Or, do you think the pegs are just decorative there?
The horizontal members are mullions, not muttins. That is, they support and separate the panes of glass, rather than make one large pane appear as several smaller panes or lights. The mullion tenons go clear through the stiles.
The entire structure of the door seems light and delicate to me, especially considering the technology of the period. It would make sense to pin the joints with dowels to make it stronger and more durable.
Makes sense! Just wondering, as I've never had to make a true divided light door.
I do wonder why they wouldn't have used a Miller dowel or a pocket screw though ;)
Those joints are probably not joined by dowels. They have PINNED mortise and tennon joints. There is a world of difference.
I thought i postyed this once but it looks like I didnt...........so bear with me
In my humble opinion it seems to me that we are inundated with elitist in these posts. We always seem to hear from those who feel that their 2c is worth a lot more than the rest of our 2$. The simple fact is fine woodworking comes down to only a few variables. Is the piece well proportioned? Does the finish fit the piece as far as style goes? Do the joints match well? does the customer want it? Is it sturdy.meant to last a long time ? What else is there?
Sometimes I feel, like the people in here are snobs, saying that they are the neu plus ultra when it come to what is fine wood working and what isnt. I ride motorcycles and I have been riding Harley Davidsons for years. Those riders are, generally speaking, the biggest bunch of snobs on the planet. First of all, if you ride anything but HD....you are, well, lower than whale scum. then they further divide it into what HD you ride. You ride a Sportster ( for you non motorcyclists thats a HD too but a smaller motor) well then you dont ride a harley, you ride 1/2 a Harley and do you ride a V Rod....well thats a Porsche ( like that is supposed to be a put down!). Nope, to the "faithfull, you ride a big twin with loud pipes or your a ####. Do you guys get my drift here? Whats with all this friggen elitism? ( that deleted word was Pu.ss.y.gimme a break!)
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Edited 10/25/2005 6:45 pm ET by cherryjohn
Edited 10/25/2005 6:46 pm ET by cherryjohn
Edited 10/25/2005 6:47 pm ET by cherryjohn
well said CherryJohn. I've noticed quite a bit of the elitist attitude here lately and it does get a bit tiring. let's all build some crap (read stuff) and talk about how we did it and leave it at that.
by the way CherryJohn, your stuff is freaking awesome! what are you working on these days?
personally I've got a couple of Adirondack chairs to get finished up to send over to New York and another set to be completed for a co-worker.
oh... sorry, forgot I was hi-jacking someone else's post! Sorry JohnH. here's my two cents... if you like using dowels for joinery, then go for it. I really don't think any of us should be looking for majority approval on any project decisions we make. I think you've proven in the pictures provided that some very well crafted and beautiful pieces can be made using dowel joinery. I can only hope that anything I build will be around for as long any anything that's in that Yale collection!
Edited 10/25/2005 11:04 pm ET by DarrylM
Thanks for the input Darryl ( BTW hows your other brother, Darryl?). I am sure some others read what I wrote and have elected me Chief Woodbutcher for the week, but so what.
Actually I just got a commision to do 4 Adirondak chairs in white oak. I did one for this guy and he has it in his office and now wants 4 to go on his porch. Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
John,
Is it snobbism, or product loyalty? I was taught to dovetail and mortise and tenon, so I don't like to use dowels or square-drive screws.
If I had a Harley, I'd leave it for a thief,
And with the insurance money, I'd buy an Indian Chief.
You can't wear out an Indian Scout,
Nor its brother the Indian chief.
They're built like rocks, to take hard knocks;
It's all the Harleys that cause the grief.
Ride on,
Ray
('38 chief)
Its elitism ( I didnt use the word snob in the woodworking comparison) when you come across as "this is the only way, my way, to make Fine woodworking". You do what you were taught...but dont insist that others subscribe to your education before they are considered on your level.
Try finding parts for your beloved Chief. In addition, I like to ride, not wrench so my V Rod does just fine in that regard and in addition it is faster then all get out. I may be old but I do like speed! As far as product loyalty goes, if that were the case with HD riders they wouldnt look down on other HD"s would they.Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
John,
You can now get a whole chief, every nut, bolt, casting and seal, from Kiwi in Calif, or from IPE in Germany. Kiwi offers a pre ww2 kit, as well as a post war chief-all new parts. There are 4 or 5 other places that sell just about any part you need to keep your old Indian on the road.
Sorry if I poked you a bit too hard about riding a Hardley Ableson--drat did I say that? All in good fun, as I hope the Harley-Indian war ended when Indian bit the dust in '53. I'm not much of a hand with a wrench myself, but have had to learn some since I got the chief--first ride, the muffler fell off; second ride, it was the chain. (Bet your v-rod can't do that, it has a belt, doesn't it?) At least the pieces that fall off are getting smaller, last thing was the mirror...
Just remember, the trouble starts when the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death.
I'm old enough to remember when, if you had a CH sportster, you were the baddest boy in town. How the times have changed.
Back on topic, I've repaired enough dowelled joints to know that they don't hold up as well long term as mortise and tenon. The Victorian furniture that was put together with dowels used to be looked at as degraded in style, as well as constructed poorly. Opinions have changed in both regards of late, I guess if it's fine woodworking to whoever says it's finewoodworking, then it is. As long as it's the sort of thing that people who like that sort of thing really like. You know, a really good example of what it is.
Cheers,
Ray
I agree that using dowels vs Mortise and tennon or sliding dovetails when the force vector generated by the weight on the joint has the effect of pulling them apart is substantial. For example if one builds a candle stand that is, well 8" in dia and the joint to hold the legs to the post is a doweld construction and the legs are designed so that the force of the weight on the table is a shearing action vs a pulling apart action, I dont see a problem with dowels. The piece will last till I am on the other side of the grass. With most customers holding tight to their wallets it makes sense to do a good job that is a cost effective job doesnt it?
Now that Chief....rigid framed right? Springer front? well Ray, I am a softie,and there aint no way I am riding a rigid framed bike. Hell, I hit some pot holes on my V Rod that will jar your teeth what would it be like on an oldie with a big cush seat and no rear shocks? Another point to ponder here....do you have a back seater? I do and she likes her tush pampered.
883 Sportsters.......yea.they were some bad in 1968 now they dont get out of their own way............ What would the think of my 115 hp V Rod back then?
Johnny Gofaster ( if the dotted lines in the road are still dots, you aint going fast enough)
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Edited 10/26/2005 12:17 pm ET by cherryjohn
Cherryjohn
I ride a 1978 honda XL 250. It's the kind of bike that your dog rips the seat all up, stupid teenagers steal and drive the crap out of it, and it sits out in the rain. When you want to ride it 4-5 kicks and it is going. Oil change, what is that? It doesn't seem to use any gas and keeps on going. If you happen to wipe out, the levers are already pre bent to take the fall. Its a pretty cool machine.
Happy Riding.
Derek
John,
Rigid rear, (Indian came out with rear suspension in '41, when did H-D have it? ;) and leaf spring front. The seat has about 7" of travel, enough to soak up most of the bumps. It is a whole 'nother trip I grant you that; that's why I like it. Plus on a vintage machine, I'm going slow enough to enjoy the scenery and dodge the potholes. Diff'rent strokes. Wifie doesn't like to ride, so I do most of her tush pampering indoors:-0))
Back to your defense of dowels, I've seen many more dowels sheared off than I have tenons. Probably 50% of the dowelled furniture I work on involves at least one sheared dowel, especially in the seat rail-to-rear leg joints of chairs. You put your finger on the main justification for using a dowel joint when you referred to cost effectiveness. Didn't Ruskin say something to the effect that there is nothing that some man cannot make a little more poorly and sell a little more cheaply, and those that consider price alone, are that man's lawful prey? It could be said that working to a price argues against the finest of workmanship, but I won't say it, I quote estimates for all my new work, and most repairs!
Ride safely,
Ray
Duo Glide...50's........... and you seem to forget the wax on wax off priciple applies to throttles too. I can go real slow..............or........see ya!Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Ok guys, help me out here. My wife won't let me have a bike, but someday, after being subjected to enough episodes of American Chopper, I still hope she'll come around. My question is, what is the difference between a flathead and a panhead? I'm guessing it's overhead valves versus not, correct?
BTW, I think kitchen cabinets will last 20 years tops, and you can use dowels and biscuits and pocket screws in them, but a piece meant to last 400 years must be made with better joinery.
Steve
My wife won't let me have a bike, but
Hmmmmmmmmm you actually listen to her? How old are you? what did she say" oh those things are dangerous and you'll be cruising to Shutoff City if you try to get one"...well so is driving a car. Living ,in general, is death defying in places like Washington DC. Stand your ground! Be the Master of your Domain! Dont let her push you around. Shutoff City is a nice place to be if you have a bike..babes love Bikes! Now that said, call me and we can work out a deal for some of those tools you'll have to sell to pay for the divorce lawyer.
Now the Pan Head and Flat Head are engine types for Harley Davidson. Flat heads were side valve engines used a lot during the 2nd world war on Military bikes because they were so reliable, however they were a bit short on power so Harley came out with an overhead valve engine called the Knuckle Head. Then Harley came out with the Pan Head in the 50's followed by the Shovel Head then the Block Head or Evo and more revcently the Twin Cam 88 or Deuce. These are the "Big Twins" , they also have Sportsters and now (bow when I say this!) V Rods!!
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Edited 10/28/2005 12:02 pm ET by cherryjohn
Once again, harvest intereferes with god honest fun here. Wet corn today though.
I've weighed the pros and cons of shutoff city, and I've been married long enough that it would be sort of like beating a dead horse. What worries me is that women have a miraculous ability to make your life worse then hell, if they want. I think I have a better approach. She likes bargains, and if I find a "bargain" she will be instantly more receptable. Might take a while to wait for some poor sod selling his Harley so his wife dosen't get it in divorce, but I'm patient. Some day...
Thanks for the info, you know, the older I get, the more bikes seem to call me. I used to hot rod a bit, but quit that because it cost too much. About time to find another diversion. Steve
heres the story, ok................you negociate the price of the bike then you pay for part of it with your credit card. So lets say the bike is.ummmmmmmmmm well $10 grand. you put $2 grand on your credit card and tell her you paid $8 grand. A veritable bargain you couldnt pass up!! Hey, I,m with ya pal..women bring deciet upon them selves!! It wouldnt be this way if they just said "yes, dear".
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Damn.. My Lady would let me get anything... Geee.. Sure wish she had better sense than to let me!
JohnH,
Sapwood is right they are not dowells they are drawbore pins which have been used to tighten mortise and tenons for a few thousand year. Their purpose is to draw the shoulder of the tenon closer to the shoulder of the mortise. The Greeks and Romans used them extensively and as your pictures illustrate they were used extensively in 18th century pieces.
Lie-Neilsen came out with a drawbore plate a few years ago which is a great tool for making the pins. The pins are made from straight grained wood of either the same species or of a darker or lighter wood for decorative purposes. I'm sure the primary purpose is for strength but some see a decorative use also.
Just as some craftsmen like to show thier dovetails some like to point out their mortice and tenons.Dowels are used on edge joints and butt joints so there will be long grain to long grain glueing surfaces. it's the same principal as biscuits. James krenov has shown how he has used dowells in some of his cabinets as did Tage Frid several years ago.
In the third picture on the left on the right of the drawbore pins I believe unless my eyes are playing tricks on me there is at least one and possibly two finish nail heads in the molding. Am I correct ? If so it is not the first time I have found them in antiques. I dont think the original craftsman did it but someone who was trying to attach a loose piece of molding.This greatly reduces the value if they are used. The Shakers did use nails on the backs of pieces or on drawers but they did not use finish nails since they were not in existence then.
Hello Whiteoak590 and Sapwood,
Thanks for your comments. I did a Google search on "drawbor pin" and found some hits for a tool and some descriptions of method that were not very clear. Can you give the forum a diagram and description of drawbore pin methods and how it differs from a simple dowel?
With simple dowels the holes align perfectly ( put 2 pieces together and drill through both at the same time and dowel it) Draw bore uses the same idea only the middle piece ( the tongue, as it were) has a hole slighty off center from the other hole. It is drilled in such a way that when the dowel is driven home it draws the tongue into the groove. The offset is a matter of maybe 1/32 or so.....not much. makes a very tight jointWicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Here's a draw bored mortise & tenon article by John Alexander you may find useful:
http://www.greenwoodworking.com/Drawbored%20M%26T%20Joint.htm
In a doweled joint, the dowel "is" the joint, which I suppose you could say is like a loose tenon joint with a very small tenon, and even less glue area. In a draw bored m&t, the dowel (or pin) helps to register the shoulder of the tenon against the mortised piece. The m&t itself is what resists racking, so the pin isn't relied on for the entire structural integrity of the joint. In much antique furniture, the pinned m&t is not be glued, so the pin also resists pullout. A contemporary piece would probably be glued and pinned, in which case the pin is a "backup" to the glue.
JohnH,Jim Kingshott, an English master craftsman, has several videos that are outstanding. One is called Mortice and Tenons which is where I first learned the technique. There was an excellent article in Woodwork magazine a few months ago that went into some detail about drawbore pins which is also excellent. The author suggesting getting some alignment pins from Sears to use as Drawbore Allignment Pins.I bought some alignment pins from a antique tool store which turned out to be too large for furniture work. They are very impressive but too large;they are for timberframing. The idea is to drill the hole in the tenon about 1/32" offset toward the morise shoulder so that when you insert the drawbore allignment tool it forces the tenon further into the mortise for an extremely tight joint. You then insert the wooden pin as you are removing the tool and then pare it flush to the mortise face. The offset should be very small like 1/32" or you risk splitting the tenon. I have learned this the hard way.You will have to make the pins yourself. Lie-Nielsen sells a plate which works very well or you can find one at an antique tool store. The alignment tool you use should be tappered so that you force the joint tighter as you force the tool into the holes; a straight tool will not work very well. I have tried the tools form Sears and they work very well. Remember to sand off the blackened stuff off the tool or it will come off on your joint.
Do you know the stock number or anything on the Sears "alignment tool?" Or a link on sears.com... I should like very much to try this technique. I'll also look for a drawbore pin plate.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
vulcan666,I'll get the exact name and size and post it. The article in Woodwork is really excellent which is where I got the idea. I'll also get the issue number.
Thanks, that would be very much appreciated. In the past when I've done pinning I've just chamfered the dowel, really tapered it so it would get in easily, then push thru and flush-cut both sides.
I couldn't find the Sears part number but the correct name of the tool is Alignment Pins. Evidently they are quite common in metal working which I know knothing about. The magazine I referred to in a previous post is Woodworking which is a quarterly. The article about drawboring is in the Autumn 2005 issue and is by Christopher Schwarz. The Alignment Pins he recommended are 5/32" and 3/16";both are tapered. he also shows how to make wooden handles for them.After reading through this thread I went to my books on Shaker furniture and sure enough they used drawbores extensively as did the 18th century craftsmen.Hope this helpsDan Evans
To whiteoak590, CherryJohn, and all the others who responded,
Thanks for the great descriptions of drawbore pin methodology. I'm sure many other members of this forum appreciate learning about it.
My little query turned into serendipity. Now I know that I phrased it improperly. I should have said "A place for exposed end grain on the front face." Now I know that drawbore pins are accepted practice for mortise and tenon joints. With the strong feelings that have been expressed, I will avoid the issue of whether exposed dowels are consistent with Fine Woodworking. It appears to be a matter of personal opinion.
The issue of exposed end grain is another discussion altogether. Go ahead and start it......make my day.Sorry, couldn't resist that.
It really isn't all that clear to me that dowels work much differently than splines. Nonetheless, there are certainly times when either are appropriate. A dowel that keeps the strain of a glued mortise and tenon joint is a useful thing. Whether you expose the dowel becomes a matter of taste. Some consider it an affectation, but it is appropriate to some periods of furniture.
I really can't see getting in a snit about it.
Frank
It is also quite possible that some of the pins of M&T joints were not the product of the original maker but were added when the piece was repaired 100 years later.
I also posted a response to this question a short while back. I am currently reading "American Furniture of the 18th Century" by Jeffrey P. Greene. It appears that dowels were used in fine furniture during this period especially in M&T joinery.
dlb
.
Thanks dlb for the reference. For the rest of those interested, on p. 126 Greene argues that cabinetmakers of the 18th century probably did not practice drawboring. Instead, they achieved the desired compression by clamping across the joint and inserting a dowel through the mortise and tenon joint. When the clamp is released, the wood expands and the shoulder is held firmly in place.
Drawboring is only practical if you can drill a hole in just the right place and at exactly the right diameter, both of which would have been difficult to achieve in the average 18th century shop. In fact, any misalignment would prevent the joint from closing, annoying to say the least when you are in the last stages of assembling a frame. So Greene's observation, that drawboring wasn't commonly done, makes a lot of sense.
John W.
This is actually very easy if you are using a brace and auger bits or Brad Bits. I have never tried it in a drill press but the above method is so easy I would not spend the time trying to set up a drill press.Dan
It would be easy with a modern brace and bit or brad point drills, but as I explained in the post just before this, I don't think that sufficiently accurate drills were commonly available in the 1700's.
John W.
I don't quite understand why you say it would be hard for an eighteenth century cabinet maker to locate a hole in exactly the right place. Marking gauges lay that out with great precision. Drills with long locating points, comparable to modern spade bits were also available, and with a modicum of skill--no shortage of that among 18th c. cabinetmakers--should yield repeatably sized holes.
This is not to say that I believe that many furniture m&t joints were assembled with the drawbore method, as opposed to just being pinned.
I didn't think that accurately machined, long point drill bits, and a means for driving them were all that common in the average cabinetmaker's kit in the 1700's, if they were available, then of course drawboring would be feasible.
A simple pinned joint, where both components are fitted together before they are drilled, would be easier to make if the drill bits were crude.
John W.
I'm writing to support JohnWW's responses. In Greene's book, he says that 18th century "cabinetmakers frequently used spoon or shell bits that did not have an accurate center point to drill small-diameter holes, so they would have had difficulty positioning a hole with the kind of precision required to make a draw-bored joint."
Yet we should avoid ever saying "always" and "never."
you are welcome. Greene's book is very interesting and provides insight into furniture building in an easy to understand manner. I appreciate the exploded views of the pieces as this helps me understand construction. I have been looking for a book along these lines for several months and ran across this at the library.
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