I have indulged myself, in a spoilt kid fashion, by purchasing more Marcou planes than I strictly need. But what can you do when addicted?
The new beasts are an S45 (45 degree bevel down small smoother) and an S50A (50 degree mid-size bevel down smoother with an adjustable mouth). They are fine thangs, as you’d expect.
Now, Philip has no website at present so there are pics of these planes (some of his pics and some of mine) at:
http://www.photobox.co.uk/album/6463503
along with pics of some Very Nasty pau rosa that has been had-at with these planes. You will see that the S45 does not do so well with this evil wood agin’ the grain; the S50A does better but the S15A or the M20A (with 62 degree bevel up configuration) do best.
Well, I am wary of annoying y’all (or Taunton) with boasting or buzzin’. So, rather than sound like Philip’s sales rep, I hereby offer to answer any questions I can about these planes, answers including both the good and the less good aspects that have ariz. (I will understand if you turn away with your eyes cast to heaven and a tut on the lip, at thi point).
No doubt Philip will partake in any discussion that may arise.
Lataxe, spendthrift pensioner.
Replies
I would love to look at the pictures but I can't get the link to work. Does it work when you try it?
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It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Don,
The link works for me but I have photobox set in my secrity software to allow both cookies and mobile code. I have a feeling the Photobox site wants to give you a bit of ActiveX to work - not a risk as far as I know but many people are very wary of ActiveX....
I am going to try posting pics to Taunton again, after yet more fiddling with the IE browser settings. I'll also try Derek Cohen's method of embeding pics. Otherwise it's going to have to be Firefox, although IE works perfetly well for me everywhere else. Only the Taunton/prospero attachment dialogue seems to be a problem....
Lataxe
Test message for photos.
It seems to work.
Lataxe
View Image
View Image
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Lataxe,
I have some sample pieces of that pau rosa in the form of flooring. That stuff is some hard! The installers had to drill it to nail it down and went through MANY drill bits!
It is however very beautiful wood. Not as beautiful as the Magoos though.
You are truly a Bad Boy and should be spanked with a long stick of pau rosa! I vote phillip gets the honor.
Regards,
P.S. Congratulations!Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I showed your "spank him" message to the ladywife, in a rather hopeful way. However, she prefers to punish me by merely raising a sardonic eyebrow, as I bluster on about how the madcoos are all absolutely necessary.
Lataxe, probably going to be put in the cupboard under the stairs.
Edited 9/6/2007 4:57 am ET by Lataxe
LATAXE , I can get the pictures no problem. It must be the computers they use over there?? No offence to you Doreen just a giggle. Anyway all you can see is an odd handle here and there not a sight of a plane, He has them all covered with wood shavings.Oh! is that what them things are supposed to do?.Great way to post pictures Lataxe,How do you go about getting it done that way?.Regds. Boysie Slan Leat.I'm never always right but i'm always never wrong. Boysie
Lataxe,
No problem here, running firefox. Very nice visit with some very nice planes.
Boysie,
There are many commercial photo processing enterprises on the Web. Photobox is just one amongst many. Most seem to allow you to dump photos into folders or albums on their server then do various things with them, such as order prints, booklets, CDs etc..
Your albums of photos lodged on their server can be made "public". This means that anyone with the url (electronic address) of the album can connect to and see your pics.
Handy, eh?
Lataxe
Whoa! Hold up there good fella. Looks like there are four planes in that there first photo - which means you were holding 2 Magoos before that last check writing binge??? Being a jealous owner of a paltry one Marcou plane, I will say you have sunk to new levels of one-upmanship.
Give us the rundown, left to right so we know which is which.
You know, this means we will need a full report, side by side testing, etc... I for one will need to know all those juicy details to satisfy the addiction.
Me thinks my next purchase will be one of them kick a$$ miter planes, and hopefully his excellence has a tad bit more of that fine african blackwood to dress it up (formal black, no doubt).
Lee, hoping to be named in your will
Lee,
The photo of 4 planes you mention is one of Philip's that he sent me so I could include it with my own. Nevertheless I do hereby confess/boast to having 4 of them madcoos in me greedy hands. (C'mon, its' no worse than having a wardrobe with 147 pairs of shoes and 79 frocks in it)!
In truth I cannot yet justify having four of these beasts purely on grounds of required plane functions. I was seduced by gleaming metal and a good price.
However, I am finding that the small S45 is very useful for those smaller planing jobs on less evil wood where one is going with the grain. I like it's weight and fabulous precision (shavings at less than a thou, according to my pressure-sensitive micrometer, when I can get a shaving in the jaws without it turning to dust). It leaves a super-smooth finish on stuff like oak and maple.
This S45 may see an additional blade from His Excellency in due course, with a 5 or 10 degree back bevel on it. There may even be an attempt to configure a blade so it can be reversed (put in bevel up) to act as a small scraper plane.
The S45 won't do nasty stuff requiring a cut agin' the grain. However, the tear out seems reduced compared to a lighter plane (such as a Veritas block or small smoother) with the same angle of cut. I believe the weight and general super-rigidity of the Marcou has an effect here, as it does not skip or chatter and the tear out is thus not amplified.
So farI have not found a job for the (larger) S50A that cannot be accomplished just as easily with the S15A I already had. The S50A is (relatively) lighter than the S15A but I have got used to planing with a freight train. Were one to require a bevel-down smoother with a York pitch, the S50A is possibly the dog's bollocks. I have no LV or LN to compare it with, though.
At bottom, I like BU planes with their ability to take a blade of any cutting angle needed, with a 60 second swap-out.
As to the mitre plane you mention - the M20A has become the favourite smoother for difficult grain, especially large panels of glued up boards. The back end of the M20A is a large arch rather than a tote, which allows various grips and a Big Push. This suits the 60 degree cutting angle used on naughty grain, as does the immense weight of the thang. Surely you must get one soon, especially since it is also perfectly suited to shooting Big Edges.
Lataxe, gloating unnattractively.
Lataxe,
Thanks for clearing all of that up for me. One final question and I'll leave you alone to play with the new toys:
Was there a reason for choosing the S15A over the S20A? Just curious. I went with the S20A to allow for Lee Valley's stock 25 degree blade to produce a 45 degree cutting angle, then I can work my way up from there. I was wondering what your thoughts were on the matter......
Lee
Lee,
I was always a bit puzzled as to why Philip decided to do 20 degree beds on his bevel-up planes as 15 degrees (or even 12) seems a more logical choice if you want the greatest possible variation in the cutting angle. It's this variation incutting angle via blade swapping that most appeals to me, in BU planes.
LV do 12 degree beds on their BU planes, so that a 25 degree bevel on a blade gives a 37 degree cutting angle, ideal for end grain. Then a 38 degree blade gives a 50 degree cutting angle; the 50 degree blade a 62 degree cutting angle, etc..
With Philip's M20A mitre plane, for instance, the lowest cutting angle is normally 45 degrees. I could put a 20 degree bevel on a blade to reduce the cutting angle to 40 degrees but that woud be one fragile edge, especially with something like an A2 blade.
Given that the M20A is meant for shooting, end grain as well as long grain, maybe 15 degree bed would be better....?
Mind, the M20A beast still carves nice thin slivers off end grain at 45 degrees so perhaps I am fretting about nowt.
I am waiting for His Excellency to drop a pearl or two before us.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
A quick reply before the pearls start dropping.....
I would agree that the 15 degree bed will give the greatest choice of cutting angles, but does one need 40 degrees as a choice for smoothing? I haven't ever tried something like this, but I'm thinking that it might only be best suited for softwoods, or extremely mild mannered hardwoods? I'm strictly guessing here - so correct me if I'm wrong.
My thinking was that the LV blades start at 25 degrees, netting a 45 degree cutting angle (a good place to start) and I could go up from there.
The other reason for the choice of the S20A was availability (immediately) and the 30% knots discount.
Lee
Folks,
There is something about bevel up planes that may have escaped attention: take a plane such as the S20A as an example:-
The bed angle is 20 degrees. You have a blade which you hone at 25 degrees -so the cut angle is then 45degrees. So what? Well that is the common angle for general work. BUT, if you now put on say an 8 or 10 degree back bevel you get a) a cut angle of 38 or 35 degrees degrees which is good for end grain , mitres etc and b) an added bonus because that back bevel has increased the included angle at the blade tip thereby strengthening it and c) there is no effect on the mouth tightness as there could be if it were a bevel down plane....
Ofcourse, with a 15 degree bedded smoother, the same thing can be achieved by a back bevel of 5 degrees rather than 10.
Some would say that by so doing, there would be insufficient clearance or relief, as 12 degrees is the norm - well one can still achieve that 12 degrees by a different combination of back bevel and hone angle.Anyway, there is the question of what type of wood is being worked.
So it seems that bevel up planes can be versatile, not only because there is a greater range of cut angles available just by honing them on, but because one can REDUCE the cut angle via a back bevel-something not possible with a bevel down, unless one changes the frog- and then there is a fuss with the mouth....Philip Marcou
Edited 9/7/2007 4:00 am by philip
Lee,
If a plane is going to do smoothing 99% of the time then that 45 degrees you mention is no doubt the best place to start, for all the good traditional reasons.
However, a lot of the timber I get is tropical and/or hard, often with difficult grain of one sort or another. This is because I like free wood so go for stuff salvaged by my wood fairies - builders, crane drivers and other such folk who cannot bear to see good old timber ripped out of places and sent to the land-fill or bonty fire.
Whilst nasty grain in such stuff usually gives way in the face of that S15A with a high 60 degree cutting angle, there are also some hard/dense timbers with well behaved grain that seem to respond well to smoothing with a low cutting angle. I noticed this by accident when using a small Veritas BU smoother with the "wrong" blade in it (ie 37 degree cutting angle) on some very old, dense cherry that was relatively straight-grained. I tried it when I later got that S15A.
Using the S15A with a low cutting angle of 40 degrees with the grain, on such hard timbers, gets a super smooth finish and a very glossy look. Old, dense hard maple responds very well, for instance. It seems to like the weight of the S15A along with a shallow cut and a tight mouth. The shavings are continuous gossamer ribbons, rather than the fragile pieces of butterfly wing that curl up and break from a shallow-set 62 degree cutting angle.
There does seem to be some diference in the surface quality when compared to cuts taken with the 45 degree cutting angle. It manifests as a glossier look.
In truth, since I tend to hand sand as the final step to eliminate any faint plane track marks, I'm not sure the 40 degree cutting ability is crucial. :-) I sand only to get rid of any faint plane track marks. Perhaps I should try harder to find a degree of curve to the blade (or better-rounder blade corners) to eliminate the track marks?
Lataxe
Sire,
" I could put a 20 degree bevel on a blade to reduce the cutting angle to 40 degrees but that would be one fragile edge, especially with something like an A2 blade."
See my previous msg: you can still get a cut angle of 40 by honing at 30 and applying a back bevel of 10--now the edge is actually strengthened by the increased included angle at the tip....
A back bevel is not hard to hone on as Derek has indicated. I prefer to grind them on because I make these blades and the surface grinder does it quickly and consistently.
The maintenance of a small back bevel angle such as 5 or 10degrees is also easy to do , once it has been established. You can either do it by jig like Derek shows or just do it by eye and feel- in this case I prefer it that way, because these small angles are easy to gauge by eye, and also the narrow bevel line helps.
I just hone using my trusty Eclipse of 35 years use plus, then hone a few strokes on that back bevel by hand without taking the blade out of the guide.
Philip Marcou
Edited 9/7/2007 2:20 am by philip
philip,
I can't see how merely adding a back bevel on a bevel up plane iron reduces the attack angle of the blade. It seems to me that it merely reduces the relief at the rear of the edge, but the angle of the upbevel as it relates to the wood surface is unchanged.
Now an upbevel of 20 degrees, reduced from 30, augmented by a 10 degree backbevel to strengthen it, would reduce the cutting angle, and the relief angle, while maintaining the same included angle on the blade, as I see it.
Instead of attempting to satisfy Lataxe's quibble about your high-angle plane, you should, in my opinion, tell him that your new, low-angle plane, will be coming soon, and purchase requests will be satisfied in the order that deposits are received.
Now for a curmudgeonly rant:
All this recent (in the last few years) hullabaloo regarding bevel-up planes, backbevels, secondary bevels, interchangeable frogs with different angles,makes me wonder how I ever got along with a low angle Stanley block plane, a wooden smoother, foreplane and tryplane, with only one iron apiece, all these years.
Now, I've honed a secondary bevel to quickly work out a gap in a blade on the job, and I regularly used a backbevel to get beyond rust pitting on the "flat" side of an old iron, but I must say that the concept of having a complement of plane irons with different bevels, secondary bevels and backbevels, to go with interchangeable frogs, smacks of the contents of Imelda's shoe closet.
It fulfils a need, but not the purpose which it allegedly serves.
Just as one does not need a 300 bottle wine cellar to get a buzz, (a six pack will do)one doesn't need three smoothers with four irons, and two frogs apiece, to effectively work wood. My they are fine, lined up on the shelves, though. And a true connoiseur can appreciate them, for what they are. Just as the fine points of a '53 Poully-Fousse vs a '68 can be debated,and expounded upon, so can a 3 degree back bevel vs 5 degree, put on with a bev-a-matic or freehand, atop a 16guage steel rule, or 18 ga.
Philip, I hope you aren't offended by these remarks. They are not directed at you. I have a lot of respect for you and your work. Your planes are beautiful, and I'm sure they work exceedingly well, and that there is a market and demand, for them. Someday, if my ship comes in, I would like to own one. But not because I need it.
Now, back to your regularly sponsored webcast, and me to my meds.
Ray
>All this recent (in the last few years) hullabaloo regarding bevel-up planes, backbevels, secondary bevels, interchangeable frogs with different angles,makes me wonder how I ever got along with a low angle Stanley block plane, a wooden smoother, foreplane and tryplane, with only one iron apiece, all these years.<My $20 Millers Falls #8 does most of my smooth plane work. No one ever told it that it wasn't providing an esoteric enough experience, or that it wasn't supposed to work on exotics, or that it wasn't an "investment," or that the depth adjustment had too much play, or indeed, any of that stuff. It just works. Now I know that makes it sound like you're jealous of some dude that has several thousand dollars worth of smooth planes, and I'm not - I say more power to them - but I'm just telling you what works for me. However that does bring me to my other point,....With all of the raving and drooling and gasping and light-headedness over smooth planes, am I missing something? Because I've found that when I build something, I only use the smooth plane for a very small fraction of the time that it takes to put something together that's recognizable as furniture, structure, or boat. TO put it this way,...if I were to choose the MVP (Most Valuable Player) of my toolbox this year, it would probably be the dado plane, or the duplex rabbet plane. Those guys have put up some numbers this year. Maybe it would be the Disston 14 inch backsaw, since I seem to always require it to be within a 4 foot radius of where ever I'm working. The smooth planes - they've had good seasons, but nothing to write home about. (Now I will confess - I use scrapers a lot, as well as smooth planes, and I sand when I need to).These people with these arsenals of smooth planes remind me of playing in tennis tournaments in the Navy when my openent would show up at the court with one a them big square bags that had like five or six tennis racquets in them. The funny thing was, they only let you play with one racquet at a time. It was fun to take the old, beat up Wilson T2000 out of the back of the truck (capable of being repeatedly thrown at a chain link fence at high velocity from thirty feet away with no structural damage) and just kick their butts out there on the court. 'Course it didn't happen every time. Sometimes I entered those tourneys just to get the T-shirt.
Take care, Ed
Ed you Rascal,
That's almost sacreligious! :-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Please don't tell Ed he is being sacrilegious. I am really enjoying this. It is fascinating when conversations on Knots focus on real woodworking.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Why I don't mean to be treading on any sacred but mad cows, Bob! I think those fancy smooth planes are great, the bee's knees, probably. I'll happily take one for free, just like I'd accept an Eric Clapton signature Martin guitar for free. No way I'd pay what they ask in money, though,...old fashioned, I guess. I'll have to keep flat-picking my $500 Ibanez and shearing bits of cellulose and fiber with my $20 Millers Falls.
Back to work,...enough goofing off.
Ed,
I bought my Gibson RB-250 for $600 in 1975, and my jack plane for about $12 from Sears in 1968. If Knots had streaming audio, we could play some duets (banjo and guitar, not hand planes).
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Ed & Ray,
Your two respective remarks.....:
"With all of the raving and drooling and gasping and light-headedness over smooth planes, am I missing something"?
"It fulfils a need, but not the purpose which it allegedly serves".
.....indcate that you don't understand the motives of we hobbyists, perhaps because your own motives for doing WW are commercial and therefore concerned with costs, price, time, efficiency and so forth. My primary motive is: play.
Of course, play is regarded as not something proper adults ought to do. Proper adults have finished with the childish things and are Grown Up Serious People, intent on Making a Living. But not this puppy-dawg. He is reh-tyrrud from all that :-)
Whilst I want to produce good furniture and other wooden stuff of quality/utility (over 130 pieces to date) the process of production is what's really important to me. It's all about the "pleasure of finding things out" (R. Feynman).
So, as I mentioned in my initial post, the buying (and drooling over) them planes is "an indulgence". For me they are toys to play with. Perhaps you are mistaken in thinking this play is somehow incidental to life or otherwise an activity unworthy of a grown lad? Perhaps play is what underpins all the other serious production and discovery? (See R. Feynman again).
Were you to get yourself a Marcou, you would discover that Philip's "playing around" with plane making has resulted in some very, very fine tools. You might even find the precision and performance of a Marcou would enhance your work (unless you are already perfect in your execution, of course).
I suspect you have your own playthings and perhaps understand only too well the joy of doing and learning for their own sake. That Injun is surely not just for transport. :-)
So lighten up, blokes and leave the intolerance and sneering to the really serious men, who need to have the bad attitudes to justify their peculiar existence and stay sane, poor things.
Lataxe, just a boy.
No need to get defensive, Lataxe. To each his own, live and let live, carpe diem, all that,....the beauty of "knots" is everyone gets to express their own viewpoint. Now my viewpoint is different than yours but it doesn't mean I'm intolerant. Matter of fact, I frequently read your posts to see what's going on with those high end sorts of tools.I'm a woodworking amateur, btw, not a pro. My next door neighbor is a stained glass artist who occasionally commissions me to build frames and carriers and things (and pays pretty well), but it is such a science project to figure out exactly what he wants built that I generally hide if I see him walking toward the fence with anything that looks like a blueprint. I have built some other god-awful bookshelves and wineracks and things that I have been paid for over the years, but nothing to substantially shake me from my blissful amateur status. If, as Stanford says, I'm only one or two major projects away from being a pro, then I want to be careful not to build those one or two projects. HA HA.I will admit, that with the hand tools, I prefer the simplistic, practical stuff,...with FWW, I prefer the first 50 issues and the articles by Tage Frid. And with furniture v. boatbuilding, I prefer boatbuilding.Take care, Ed
Ah Lataxe,
You are exactly right. Except for the sneering, and intolerant part. You have captured just what I was alluding to, that the esoterica is primarily reserved for those who do not depend on woodworking, (or wine, shoes) for a living. Seeking for perfection, alas, is not afforded me, in the workshop, for I have promises to keep, and molding to carve, before I sleep.
And I do realise, that for many of you, gentle readers, that making a gossamer-thin shaving is a worthy end in itself, that a glassy-smooth surface is an end in itself; just as a trip down the road on a '38 Chief is not primarily a means of transport, in the usual sense.
And I do sincerely apologise for any feelings of ire I aroused.
Richard Feynman-- Surely you're joking?
Ray
Ray, I too find the discussions on multi-bladed planes with all sorts of tweaks to sharpening angles and back bevelling fascinating. It's primarily because the topic seems so esoteric and a long way from what goes on in busy workshops. I don't see any harm in it and there's even the possibility that something new will come out of it.
I tend to be what I call a sharp'n'go type myself. I haven't got a clue to within perhaps five degrees what angle I use to sharpen. It's kind of hard to know when you're freehanding the job. Anyway, it doesn't matter as the end result cuts wood very well indeed, and that's the important bit.
However, I do use anything up to four planes in tandem when smoothing large panels, ie, with settings I describe in engineeringly (sic) precise and pernickety detail as rough, roughish, pretty fine and barely bloody cutting. It saves a lot of twiddling of that knob thing at the back. Drop the rough set one, pick up the roughish set one, etc.
They're a motley collection of smoothing planes sadly. Rough and ready looking things, some with a poor genetic pool in the family background, but I get by. It would be nice to have some of those posh looking things that Marcou makes that shine and gleam in the right light-- I had the chance to run my critical eye over a Marcou jobbie the other week when I was in the south of England visiting an acquaintance. Owning one will just have to wait until another day, and I'm not sure I could get used to that bevel up thing either, but there you go. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
Knob twiddling is not good , not good, under any circumstances. Do away with it, get a non twiddler-it does not have to be the dreaded bevel up either.Park those back lashers in the shade.
And I do not refer to one of those that are bashed with mallet front and back to move blade. (;)Philip Marcou
Edited 9/8/2007 8:59 pm by philip
Richard,
Don't listen to philip. Let that gal twiddle your knob, every chance you get. Twiddle it yourseln, if need be.
Ray
Edit, And a little back-lashing, I'm told can get the blood flowing, esp if she's in a school uniform.
Edited 9/8/2007 9:31 pm ET by joinerswork
Let's see about the knob twiddling Ray in my four plane smoothing platoon.
Set rough is an old Spiers. Not much twiddling with that thing. It's all whack with a plastic faced mallet to set. The edge lasts for ages before it needs resharpening. No idea why it lasts but it's one of those old bi-metal blades.
Next up, roughish set, is a nothing Stanley a lot of backlash for knob twiddling fun, but the edge seems to last a long time. Set the bugger roughish and leave it alone until sharpening time.
Following that is a Clifton. Edge lasts well and very little backlash, so some minor twiddling to make adjustments as needed and not frustrating at all really.
Last of all is another Stanley set to cut almost nothing. A ton of backlash, doesn't hold an edge for long, so set it and leave it as much as possible. It lasts quite a while just doing final bits and bobs.
Perhaps there's less knob twiddling in my life than there ought to be? But if I did like Philip suggests and buy planes without backlash perhaps there wouldn't be enough diversions left in my life. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 9/9/2007 4:47 pm by SgianDubh
Richard,
I've got a couple planes with knobs to twiddle, but mostly I bang on various wood and steel bits with a wooden mallet. All in what you're used to, isn't it? And diversions is where ya find 'em. I understand Lataxe finds 'em in his closet, pleated and plaid, next to the bundle of canes.
Ray
Ray, you're right. We've all got our wee diversions that liven up a job. It wouldn't be any good if every tool was faultless. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Thanks, Chaps, that has been most revealing. (;)Philip Marcou
Ray,
Have you been peering into the ladywife's closet somehow? That school uniform in there is just a keepsake from the olden days, when she were as pert as a [censored by the Taunton spoilsport police].
Incidentally, you must give up that "old git" habit, as soon you will be hitting little children in the street with a stick for no reason and shouting at the trams. Also,they will take your Injun away on the grounds that you and it together would constitute a public danger. (Yes, I know you're dangerous now and always have been).
Lataxe, friend to mad old blokes everywhere.
Lataxe,
I've read about you Brits, and your predelictions for plaid skirts, and cane rods...
Although I guess I'm a bit off my feed right now, hope to be in fine(r) fettle in a few days. I positively despise this time of the year.
All bark and no bite, that's me. Children and trams are safe enough for now.
Ray, curmudgeon in training
Listen, Ed, these fellows with arsenals of smooth planes are not alone or unique. I don't see why they should get a bollocking from anyone, let alone a sniffed nose.
Personally I am just wedded to my (old) Record number 51/2-which I use for almost everything- even short things like fairing the underside of plane handles. This does not stop me from seeing things from another person's point of view (er, whether or not I am making planes myself to stock arsenals).
I don't see any raving, drooling or gasping over smoothing planes that is misplaced (;) . I saw some discussion over back bevels, blade angles etc- nothing new except that my planes were the focus and I tried to put up something to be chewed on.
Then again , you are right when you say that "they only let you play with one racquet at a time." The real question is " What would you rather play or plane with?"
And I am not saying that there is a universally correct answer.
Tell us some more of your jokes-I have lost the reference to the many good ones you told in the past.Philip Marcou
That's a "bollocking," a "sniffed nose?"Are you kidding me? I expressed a point of view that was different from the one that you usually see and I did it with a little bit of humor. Good grief.>And I am not saying that there is a universally correct answer.<Great. I've spent a lifetime strenuously avoiding people that said there was a universally correct answer, and who were, most often, just dying to explain it.
Ed ,
lighten up, this is not like youPhilip Marcou
Ed,
No offense taken, old chap - one merely likes to play with words as with the planes, with many a fine game to be had.
Perhaps we boys are playing a little too roughly? (I will ask the ladywife, who knows where to draw lines). If so, I will stick a plaster on my scraped knee and offer you one for your bloody finger where I bit in a fit of pique :-) Then we can laugh sheepishly and go off to the next game.
Lataxe
Ed, brings to mind one of my favorite sayings, attributed to some ancient Chinese woodworker named Confucious (or something like that).
"Man who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt man doing it."
Ha ha. I was reading knots while drinking my morning cofee (a ritual of sorts) when this came through. Hope you get a good answer to your redwood question over there on breaktime.
Certainly Lu Ban, but Confucius a woodworker????Ed, brings to mind one of my favorite sayings, attributed to some ancient Chinese woodworker named Confucious (or something like that)."Man who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt man doing it."
Hey, fact is stranger than fiction (or is that the other way around?). No matter, I'll bet he WANTED to be one, if he wasn't.
Ray , When your ship comes in ,,,,
I'll be right behind you in my canoe .
dusty , who's done work that know one has ever seen except ,,
who it was made for .
Ray,
No offence taken-what's the point of getting uppity?
The last thing I want to do on this forum is cause folk to start throwing rocks at each other over something I say....particularly about planes.
I was talking about a combination of bevels including back bevels in relation to bevel up blades, and the range of options available to those who want to use or experiment with them.I hope I did not say or imply that a back bevel alone on a bevel up blade changes the cut angle. The point I was making was that it is possible, and may even be desirable for some , to reduce the effective pitch on a blade that is bedded at 20 degrees.
A back bevel alone does change the included angle at the tip-as I see it. Semantics?
I don't see any quibbling in what Lataxe has said-he has various planes and is enjoying working and or experimenting with them-precisely what I would like him to do, and I am happy to send him more blades for that purpose. He may do am Esmelda Marcos on us -but it will be fun for him and I like customer feed back anyway, (in addition to happy customers).You are right: one does not need a lot of these things(the tools)-but boy is it fun for those who do want them...
Look, I think the best thing to do is for me to drop in at your place in the near future with just two planes and many many many blades for each. You could play with them after the days toil is over, and I would be pottering around happily on your Indian....I might even ride around to Ed's place. (;)Philip Marcou
philip,
You got yourself a deal. If you are ever in the neighborhood, I hope you will take some time to visit. I have two benches in the shop, and two helmets for the 'sicle.
Take care,
Ray
Philip:You said "Esmelda Marcos," but perhaps "Esmelda Marcou," wouldbe more to the point?J
Ray,
Your thoughts on the mechanicals of back bevels got me hullabaloo-ing even more and I felt the need to obsessively make diagrams to try and grasp what them back bevels would actually look like, in the plane and cutting wood.
I am now utterly confused and feel an even stronger need to cut the Gordian knot by slipping that blade Philip mentions into the S45 and seeing what happens when the wood is had-at.
Of course, this mucking about only goes on between the bouts of actual furniture-making. I have extra time as mine has no mouldings on it. :-) (But what was that about needing 237 wooden moulders for frou frou? I feel an urge to build a new cupboard in the shed and then a thing-ornate.....no, no; not yet).
Lataxe, never irate just vig'rus in manner now and then (hormones probably - last took a "med" in the 60s. It had a little flower on it).
Eeh lud,
"I am now utterly confused and feel an even stronger need to cut the Gordian knot by slipping that blade Philip mentions into the S45 and seeing what happens when the wood is had-at".
I assume you got that diagram I sent last night.
No need for confusion- the blades will soon be on their way for you to try out.Philip Marcou
Lataxe meduck,
"what was that about needing 237 wooden moulders for frou frou"
Equal time for LWilliams, of course.
Ray, an equal-opportunity rabble * rouser
*present company excepted, of course
Edit: P.S. What's this about actually putting plane to wood? Crazy talk.
R
Edited 9/8/2007 9:08 pm ET by joinerswork
Ray writes, "Lataxe meduck,
'what was that about needing 237 wooden moulders for frou frou'
Equal time for LWilliams, of course.
I'll take it.
Lataxe is into Arts and Crafts stuff. I'll admit I find some of it attractive. But I also understand its underlying sensibility. The rectilinear design was intended for the home craftsman to be able to produce with basic machines. The visual weight and balance of Arts and Crafts pieces is controlled through material thickness. If you want more visual weight, add more mass--use thicker heavier stock. That comes at a price.
A few months ago my daughter asked me to go look at some furniture in a garage sale. I went and what she had her eye on was junk. But there was this mahogany dresser sitting there. It was a hand-made British piece that was well built and, I would guess from about 1910 to 1920. I bought it for her for far less than the mahogany would cost today. Visually and structurally it's as substantial as a similar Arts and Crafts dresser. The difference is that visual weight, balance and mass were controlled with moldings and other design techniques. An Arts and Crafts dresser of similar size would take two men to carry up a flight of stairs. Because this mahogany dresser was designed the way it was it weights about a quarter of what an Arts and Crafts piece would weigh. I'm sure my daughter could move it up a flight of stairs herself. The only "frou frou" in this dresser is some delicate inlay banding.
Oops, that's a little more than equal time.
Back to the original subject. The discussion, while interesting, has at times implied all this stuff about different cutting geometries is new. It's not, it's hundreds of years old. The different pitches of planes were a casualty of mass production or volume production. Common pitch, York pitch, middle pitch and half pitch are old terms and they existed for very sound reasons. Bevel up planes are documented back to the 1500's. Holtzapffel was writing about back bevels more than 125 years ago. The difference is that what was happening before, at, and after the cutting edge severed the wood fibers was understood in earlier times. People seem to want to ignore that today. Clearance angles are critical when you look at the deflection and spring-back of the wood fibers when cut. Even Richard Newman understood clearance angles when he wrote about bevel up planes and cutting geometry in Fine Woodworking #39, March/April 1983.
If people understood what was happening at the cutting edge and why the different cutting geometries work the way they do, I don't think this thread would have gone beyond a few "Nice planes" comments.
Mr L,
Well, I wish you would take more time to give us the sort of knowledge you impart in your post. Why are you spending all that time making planes and money when you could be enlightening hobbyists like me instead, out of the goodness of your heart? :-)
I suppose that there are many banks of knowledge that have somehow become less accessible than they were. The traditional is, sadly, not valued much today by the wider world. I for one will be seeking some of those older sources of learning you mention.
As to the Arts and Crafts thang - your thoughts on that are also illuminating; although surely there is more than one design idea (ie the easy-to-make driver) behind the "rectilinear principal"?
Even if ease of construction informed, for instance, Shaker design, their super-plain look has also evoked a whole set of preferences and tastes that cause many who buy (not make) that style to want it. And then there was the Shaker's own principal concerning "the simple"....which may have transferred from a religious belief but is perhaps still valid as a design criterium?
Lataxe, who will one day attempt frou frou
Joiner
You make a great point. Well stated.
If I won all of those planes, I'm not sure I could keep track of all the custom angles, honing angles and which was which?? Its funny but years ago I was at a carving seminar with a great carver and he said: "the best carving tool is the one you like, the one you reach for most often and the one you put down the least" - the more you carve, the more you feel the cutting edge of the tool in your hand and you know how to adjust.
I'm a little like that with some of my planes. I know they are not pretty but they are sharp as can be(by my feeble standard) and they do the job. I built a couple of York angle wooden planes and put an expensive blade in one and an old stanley in the other. When I ask people which one do you like better-- they can not decide. In the end: I wish I didn't buy that expensive blade from California, bought another carving tool and used more of the blades I have sitting in a bucket of 80wt oil from flea markets.
Dan,
I am sure Ray won't mind me chiming in here but when you said
"the best carving tool is the one you like, the one you reach for most often and the one you put down the least", I wanted to say this (about plane blade angles):
You would undoubtedly arrive at possibly no more than three angles to maintain, after trying them out in relation to your work.The thing to note is that although someone else may have also tried out 4 dozen angles, and settled on three as well, these may not be the same three that you chose.....
This does not apply just to non professionals- I have observed the same traits in dyed in the wool full time craftsmen who have gone through the old and strict British apprenticeship system: in theory there is the Bible (of woodworking), but in practice the followers are many and diverse. (One of the good things about woodworms)
There are options out there (referring to planes, blades and angles), and I think there are folk who are interested in looking at them, especially those who have time and patience. Although these folk are primarily those who do not have to earn their living through woodworking, there are still some of the other who I believe would also derive some benefit: I know because I have earned a living through woodworking initially from being an employee and latterly from being self employed.
Here is an example: man works Burmese Teak all day long, mostly by hand.He lines up several traditional planes or blades to use and exchange as soon as each gets blunt -which will happen quickly since by traditional I mean those such as older Stanley types with the normal factory blade-that is the way he has been taught. He has also does what he sees stamped on that blade- "honing angle 30 degrees, grinding angle 25 degree". Would he not benefit by use of alternatives in the form of a different plane type , different blade steels or a different combination of blade angle? He could be sharpening only one blade for one plane in far less time than if he stuck to the "traditional", not to mention the fact that by merely increasing honing angle to 35 degrees the edge would last a bit longer on that Teak.
It's not just about sharpness.Philip Marcou
Ahhh, Philip,
Now you've gone and done it.
Many times, in my younger days, (geez alert) I railed against the "always done it this way" attitude of older co-workers. (That was before I began to see the error of my ways.) Now here I am, taking the very same "always done it" stand, regarding your new-fangled plane blade angling, back-beveling, bevel-upping ways.
Drat.
Geezers of the woodworking world, unite!
Nah, too much trouble. Carry on, like you are used to doing. Let the new-fanglers to their fangling.
Ray
Gaaardangeeeit, boy, mount yer Indian an git some fresh air .
Should I ever have the pleasure of visiting you it will be a simple matter, after suitable demonstration, to do a trade for the Indian.
This will enable me to ride off and visit all those other great Knotsters out there, and you to reduce knob twiddling. (;)Philip Marcou
Philip,
Knob twiddlin aside (we'll leave that to Richard, shan't we?) I look forward to the opportunity to give y'all a lesson in Indian ridin'.
YEEEHAW!
Ray
Ray ,
Now I'm getting kind of nervous, all this about a knob twiddling Cowboy riding the injun,
" caption this scene , Brokeback copy cat "
cause it's been done before , I've been told
dusty , maker of machine made designer kindling
Ray,
I told ya! He's after the Injun. I just knew it!
Oooops, philip would you be so kind as to redirect this to Ray. I thought I was responding to him. Must be somestimers again..........
I'm going back up to the woodshop and grind a new bevel on an iron and mount it upsidedown.
I agree with philip, take a ride on the Injun. Come up here and I'll treat you to some very rare bourbon with some fine French cuisine served by extrodinaire Canadian ladies. Psssst Ray, don't tell philip.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 9/9/2007 7:52 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 9/9/2007 7:53 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob, I am seeing the exact location of your place on Google Earth as we speak....Philip Marcou
philip,
Hint, hint.
It's just 10 miles south of the Canadian border. Stones throw from The Balsams.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 9/9/2007 8:39 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
philip,
Just to let you know during your Google search; Meg is a Standard breed and Zoie (the chestnut horse with the white patch on her forehead) is part Trechana (sic) and paint. Zoie has papers and is a daughter of Onassis.
Zoie can outrun any Injun across a field, as long as there isn't any clover!
Best Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 9/9/2007 9:11 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
As a boy I used to have a Standardbred. Didn't require any odd bevels, either. However, if someone she didn't know or like tried to ride her, her road gait (racing trot) would handily remove fillings and impart new bevels where none had been before.Suppose you mean Trachener, as in the big German horses? Didn't know Onasis was into that, but I suppose with his money he could get by with some oddities...JoeEdited 9/9/2007 10:03 pm ET by Joe Sullivan
Edited 9/9/2007 10:04 pm ET by Joe Sullivan
Hi Joe,
Meg is the Standardbred and I can truly relate to your talk about bevels where none exsted B4. As a lad of 58, the first time I rode her she gave me a new understanding about solid fillings in my teeth!
We have since become good friends albeit as a hired hand who fills in for the wife; the horse rider of the family.
Zoie, whose father is named Onassis (pure bred Trachener) is another matter all together. She's 15'6 hands tall and lends new meaning to being high on the saddle so to speak. I'll have to Google up Onassis & Trachener to find him, but he is incredible to see. She's a lot of fun to ride and about as mellow as the day is long.
I now feel like Lorne Greene but have longer legs and much skinnier!
Best Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I would just like to reiterate what Larry has said.
The practical benefits of varying cutting geometry have been known for hundreds of years but unfortunately became somewhat lost in the postwar period.
The changing of "effective pitch" or cutting angle is one of the most valuable tricks one can learn if you work with interlocked dense hardwoods. Planing without tearout saves hours of scraping or sanding.
Japan Woodworker sell an excellent pamphlet on this subject by Brian Burns.
I describe straightforward methods in my first book. Back bevels in regular bench planes are easy to do, simply by honing very narrow bevels on the back of the blade. These bevels do not need to be more than 8 thou" wide and I see no need to have specially ground blades.
Methods for dealing with difficult grain will be covered extensively in my next DVD which may be available round Christmas....It was shot in Maine just after Larry's DVD on making moulding planes and will include back bevels, raised effective pitch in bevel up planes and scraper planes.
Best wishes,
David
David,
my next DVD which may be available round Christmas
Sounds like a great video. That one will definitely be on my wish list! Thanks for the heads up.
Lee
Lee,
Thank you. I am very excited about it as I suspect that many people are struggling with scraper plane set up.. and that few are enjoying the benefits of back bevels.
The precise timing is unknown as this depends on the editing and production.
To get back to the original thread, Lataxe's two planes and an S20A will appear in a review of Philip Marcou's work which I hope to be writing in the next few weeks. Publication of course a few months........I have enjoyed looking at and using these splendid beasts.
best wishes,
David
Mr C,
And you got that S45 all nicely turned out too. :-)
Hiz Excellency has sent me 3 extra blades to play with in the S45, including one he has back-bevelled to10 degrees and another with a 45 degree bevel to be used bevel-up, to see if it will scrape. The third was a standard blade which I have back bevelled myself (using something akin to your ruler trick) just to see if I could do it without too much fuss. (No problem).
I am happy to report that a blade with the 10 degree back bevel (giving a 55 degree cutting angle on the 45 degree bed) works very well indeed on the nasty stuff - better than a standard blade in the 50 degree bed S50A. There is no doubt that, as you say, the cutting-angle differences have a great effect on a plane's ability to deal with difficult grain, no matter how that cutting angle is achieved.
I haven't used the scraper blade yet.
Since having and using both Veritas and Marcou bevel-up planes, I have been rather wary of getting a bevel-down plane of the traditional design. The technology of moving frogs, chip-breakers and so forth always seemed too fussy; and a BU design does allow quick-change cutting angles via a simple blade swap.
However, the usability of Philip's bevel down planes is no different in practice to that of bevel-up planes, as the beefy build and thick blades mean no chip breaker is required; and using back-bevelled blades of various grinds allows a quick blade swap to change the cutting angle just as with a BU plane. Finally, the S45 has a non-adjustable but tight mouth whilst the S50 has an adjustable mouth - so no need to mess about moving frogs.
Perhaps modern metal plane design, albeit based heavily on older designs, has evolved and improved on the old, as better materials (for blades in particular) have come along.............?
Lataxe
PS Hope you enjoyed the Scillies - sun, sand and plenty exotic growing thangs? (The ladywife is envious).
Allright, I have finally mustered the courage since Lataxe has brought it up once again:
David, what is the ruler trick? Explanation and photos please!
Hope that wasn't a dumb question, but I have been meaning to ask Lataxe for some time as he keeps bringing it up, but it is always described as David Charlesworth's ruler trick.
Thanks,
Lee
Lee,
Even though a recent Austrailian reviewer suggested that I had not invented the ruler trick, he later conceeded that it was not mentioned in any previous book!!
It is a method of imposing a two thirds of a degree polished "back bevel" on the flat side of any plane blade or cutting tool except chisels.
The problem with the nomenclature is that this is not a back bevel in the sense that one would use a back bevel to alter the Effective Pitch or cutting angle of a conventional bevel down bench plane. (I would sugest that to plane cranky dense exotics, one should use a back bevel of 25 degrees).
The Charlesworth ruler trick is a method which;
1. Saves hours of back flattening on a new blade,
2. Massively increases the probability of correctly polishing away the final trace of wire edge on an 8,0000 or 10,000 grit polishing stone.
3. Removes any need for stropping.
I'm afraid I havn't mastered pictures to forums, and it would be best to see it in my first DVD or page 35 of my first book.
Also see pages 44 to 49 of the splendid new collection of Popular Woodworking articles, "Hand Tool essentials". ISBN-13: 978-1-55870-815-0 Rob Cosman enthusiastically demonstrates my technique as well, he is delighted with the time saving aspect.
Best wishes,
David
David
Who said that? (It wasn't I)...
Lee should do a search on FWW articles as there is a nice one of yours here on the Rule Trick.
Here is a picture from it:
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Got it guys, thanks.
I get the jist of the technique, but I will check out David's video as well.
Thanks for the help,
Lee
Derek,
It was Richard Vaughan in Australian Wood Review. A very nice review of one of my DVDs, though he did sugest that Leonard Lee might have described the ruler trick. Leonard has lots on back bevels but not for the same function as my ruler trick, which is a sharpening aid, not really a true back bevel, being only 2/3rds of a degree..
A back bevel of less than 15 degrees seems fairly pointless to me and I generally use 25 degrees for dense cranky exotics.
He published a recantation on the magazine website, but unfortunately the editor did not choose to put it in the next magazine.
Best wishes,
David
That does appear to be an interesting technique to solve a problem that I have never encountered - a back that took hours to flatten - for me more like fifteen minutes with Norton 3X paper in its 60 grit iteration (to achieve flatness) and then up through a few more grits to achieve a nice polish.
Where on earth are you coming up with these monstrous plane irons?
Hi Charles,
I use a similar technique on vintage, thick and tapered plane blades which have pits deep enough that it would be difficult and pointless to remove them via flattening the back.
Even in the early days of Hock, LN and LV, blades were not always flat enough (to my thinking then) to bother flattening even the lower portion. An extrmely low and thin bevel such as DC describes is great in such circumstances. It's repeatable and saves a lot of work. Especially on A2 steel which is far more onerous to flatten.
While you prefer to actually flatten a significant portion (evidently) I choose not to.
For true back bevels on BD planes, I too use larger angled BB to alter the cutting angle on difficult grain. But it isn't the same as a degree or two thin "takes a few swipes" on a fine stone BB.
Take care, Mike
Pan,
You interrogate Mr C with: "Where on earth are you coming up with these monstrous plane irons"?
I believe he is travelling from the land of innovation, investigation and experience. This is perhaps a long way, culturally at least, from that happy land of utopia where you seem to live. Still, why travel abroad, as it were, when you already know everything worth knowing (but how do you that you know, etc.)?
Lataxe, an armchair traveller.
Having got to grips with plane sharpening and angles there only remains the confusion in my mind concerning blade cambers – that rounding of the cutting edge to a slight radius. There seems to be differences in the advice and recommendations within various books and within postings here in Knots.
When is a camber needed? What degree of camber is needed for what tasks?
I can understand the large camber put on to a scrub plane. But there seems to be an inherent contradiction in having a plane meant to achieve smoothness but honing the blade so that it makes troughs, however shallow. And some folk seem to recommend that even a jointer have a camber; but surely the edges of planks to be jointed must be dead flat….?
Tom Lie-Nielsen and Gareth Hack both seem to say, in their respective books, that a jointer should have a straight blade. Graham Blackburn describes a joining process where a “very slight camber” on a jointer plane blade is used to true a slightly out-of-square profile, by using the “tilt” of this camber on the left or right side of the blade in correction of the “tilt” of the jointed edge. Why not just tilt the plane by the requisite amount; or use a guide?
The aforementioned authors also recommend use of a camber on a smoothing plane blade. But there is a discrepancy concerning the degree of camber. GH says “no more than 1/16 inch” (around 60 thou?). TL_N says “6 thou” and Garret Hack “1 thou” - this being the difference in blade length at the edges compared to the middle.
The latter seems so small as to be impossible to judge and would surely be ineffective with a shaving thicker than a thou or two; 1/16” seems a lot; whilst 6 thou sounds like it will stop plane track marks but still have troughing effects and interfere with the getting of wide gossamer shavings thinner than 4-6 thou.
I do a lot of smoothing on hardwoods having difficult grain, requiring a minimal blade projection (shavings of 1 to 3 thou). With a significantly cambered blade only the middle 1/3 or less of the blade ends up taking a cut (depending on the degree of camber). Conversely, any plane tracks from a straight blade are very slight with these thin shavings; so it is easy to get rid of them with a few swipes of a hand sander of fine grade.
Anyway, all wisdom concerning plane blade cambers welcome, especially the kind with attached reasons (as opposed to bald statements of the kind, “Old Aloysius Cantaker recommends a camber of X in his tome of 1763”. :-)
Lataxe, playing not working
Holy blasphemy, L!! You SAND AFTER planing!!!!! Why not just get a belt sander and be done with it, Laddie?
While I profess no great expertise nor strong feeling that my way is best, I'll contribute to your polling data on cambers: I use them extensively (jack, smoother, and jointer) but my cambers are minimal - with a Eclipse guide, extra few strokes at every pressure point along the edge as one works out from the middle. The camber looks pronounced on the bevel, but a square shows it to be minute at the edge. I like my planes to take from the center first, and don't mind a minute scallop in a table top if caught from the right lighting angle. I've never found the camber to be an issue in jointing edges as far as preventing firm mating and invisible joints, perhaps because the arc is so minute and wood somewhat plastic?
Edited 9/24/2007 3:22 pm ET by Samson
S,
Yes, I am an awful fellow and won't stick to pure ways. I never did believe that stuff about a plane (or a scraper) leaving a better finish than sandpaper. True, it looks better before the finish goes on; but once the surface has been oiled, I don't believe it's possible to differentiate a planed from a sanded surface. (Assuming the planing and sanding were done for a dead flat and blemish-free surface, of course - no tracks, gouges, scratches or swirls).
You use a minimal camber, then - a Lie-Nielsen or Garret Hack style rather than a Blackburn? Presumably your only motive is to avoid the track marks....? Or are you aiming to get a planed look (ie those very slight scalops you mention)? I can understand a deiberate attempt to leave plane marks ; and troughs look better than tracks.
Lataxe
Presumably your only motive is to avoid the track marks....?
I think that is what started it for me. I can't stand the tracks, and the camber makes the blade more forgiving even wnen not centered or skewed perfectly to the center.
I don't know if this will add to the conversation other than the fact that there will be more words and paragraphs devoted to it, but I read some of the same recommendations about using a cambered edge on a jointer, in an effort to square the edge. I was looking at the page like a dog watching TV when I finished, partially due to a cambered edge leaving a slight hollow on the edge and if extreme care isn't taken, the edge will almost have to be wavy since nobody's hand is totally steady. I decided to use a camber-free iron and so far, it has worked well. Any time I need a square edge, I tilt the iron and correct it. I think I've gotten pretty good at it, but I haven't done a whole project's worth of long boards at one time, either. I found another #7 and bought a LN 2-1/4" iron. The laminated iron on the original #7 holds an edge really well and that's the one I didn't camber. The LN is, and that's what I generally use for flattening. The way I shaped it, the amount of camber isn't enough to make much of a hollow in the edge, especially on a thin board. My #4 has the original iron, is cambered and does a great job on flame/quilted maple. IN the final stages of smoothing, the iron doesn't project enough to make an obvious trough but if the piece is held to the light in the right way, it's just slightly visible. IMO, anyone can run a board through a planer/thicknesser (I have a jointer and planer) but I like smoothing by hand, knowing it's smooth but being able to see a touch of handwork. I think there's more chatoyance (who comes up with these words?) with the right grain in some wood and have compared it to sanding on the same piece. With a freshly honed/stropped/arm hair shaving edge, planed looks more crisp to my eyes. It just seems that sliced wood fibers leaves a crisper surface than a series of minute grooves, some of which happen to coincide with the fibers.The camber on my irons is mostly at the ends, and I have the Eclipse guide. I use the guide because I can't spend time every day working with these tools and I want repeatability in my sharpening and honing. Adding pressure at the corners gives me the amount of camber I like and it leaves no tracks.Whether this actually adds anything of substance to the thread, I don't know.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
If I can just chime in...
I too have read about cambering the blade on a #7-for edge shooting. I have never done it and prefer the edge to be square, for shooting. Why get complicated?
Check board edge with square, finger the high side and plane it-pressing a bit more to the high side. Very easy, provided the board is suitably held, i.e horizontal , edge up at the right height for the person. Makes sense. Is the way taught to apprentices of the old (British)school that is my benchmark.
As far as I am concerned cambering is good for smoothers-and I refer to a very slight camber which does not prevent one from taking a full width shaving, I am not talking of Adam's Camber for use in scrub planes. A slight camber enhances planing and the tool traces are easier to remove if necessary by scrapers or some sanding-some sanding.
The alternative to cambering a smoother blade is to have it straight across except for the last four or five mm's on each side, which slant back a bit. All done free hand or with an Eclipse guide if one is not allergic the use of this simple and effective tool.
For jack planes I like to use an increased camber when compared to the smoother.
Those trammel lines/trenches left by an unsoftened blade corner are bastids because usually one or more hides, then appears when you are about to spray the last coat, or deliver the item. Not only do they hide, they are more work to remove, and they look like hell.
Philip Marcou
One of the first passes with my #4 left some tracks and since I had made a couple of things in the past with hidden scratches that reared their ugly heads at the last second, I decided to do something about it. That meant knocking the corners off gently and gradually using the guide. Most of the iron's edge is straight with a slight lift and it leaves almost no trough and since the edge only extends about .001" on final passes, there's no chance for the sharp edge to even touch the surface. The grooves are really a PITA when they hide in the grain and some look like someone used a magic marker after staining or sanded with 60 grit across the grain, changed to 220 and called it a day because the scratches were filled in by fine dust, making them seem invisible. If using a powered jointer or glue line ripping blade on a table saw are OK for a glue joint, I see no reason not to have a straight edge after hand jointing. With some practice, it's not that hard.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I would be interested in your comments about the idea of using a file to just knock the corners off of a blade. I believe, without checking carefully, Rob Cosman recommends this.
I tried that when I first started with planes and found that it didn't help me enough as (when a corner caught, so to speak) it just created a different sort of wider blunter track/scrape than with sharp corners. This may well have been attributable to my newbie status at the time, but I tried slight cambers and never went back to see if with my improved technique and understanding of plane adjustment it might be enough. Indeed, it may well be for a jointer blade if all you want to do with your jointer is shoot edges. For working any surface (as opposed to edge) a slight camber is my preference as it ensures I'm always taking from the middle of the blade - ever so slightly - first.
Mr. Herzig,
It should be painfully obvious, in this discussion of .001 measurements, that without an electron microscope to measure, we cannot really be precise with our honing. No woodworking shop should be without one. And it needs to be covered when not in use. Dust is its enemy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Since I have access to several such as well as a confocal microscope and a copy of one by Loewenhoek, I guess I should stop looking at what I make until I can be sure that I am within that ball-park. (Please note this was written with a wink and a nod as well as a tone of sarcasm!)
Herzig,
My message was written in the same fun tone as your response.
If we can't have fun, we should move to a different passtime.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Here's a picture of mine.
View Image
That thing cost me more than my house!
How do you calibrate the damn thing?
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 9/25/2007 12:11 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
You asked how you calibrate an electron microscope.
Do you have a small hammer that is used for adjusting the irons in wood planes?
If so, use that hammer. Larger hammers do damage.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thanks all for the discussion.
I think I will be learning to camber but putting in only a small amount - perhaps in that fashion Philip mentions so that most of the blade is near-straight with a bit more "lift" near the blade corners.
It seems some kind of narrow wheel sharpening jig such as the eclipse will help. I notice that there is a Veritas barrel-shaped wheel for their Mark II jig also. But perhaps it would be worth trying a freehand removal of some metal from the corners of an already straight blade - some experimentation won't hurt.
The more I thinks on it, the less worried I am about some minimal scalloping in the smoothed surfaces. "Smooth" here seems not to mean "dead flat". With these minimal cambers it sounds like the scalloping will be hardly visible but still a contributor to the hand-made look. Perhaps we can call it "near-aerospace" flatness? :-)
Anyway, such scallops sound better than a blade track missed by the sanding or scraping. In fact, it would be very satisfying to be able to use the plane only with no need to do the last refinement of the surface with scraper or sander. The Marcous are capable of leaving a very clean surface in just about anything, so.....
As to the jointing - I will continue trying (!) to get the edges to 90 degrees as well as straight using a plane only. I have only a Mujinfang wooden (ebony) 18 inch jointer, which is wonderful to use but which I can't seem to find a grip for that allows good control to get that 90 degrees.
At present I am reduced to cutting long boards straight and to 90 degrees on the TS (as I have for years) then using the plane to remove only the saw kerf marks - a thou or 5 so easy to keep the 90 degree profile (as well as the straight edge) as the kerf marks serve as a planing guide.
I would like to joint rough, bent edges with only a try plane - just to get the skill. Will I have to buy yet another (Western style) plane to enable the necessary control? Those who use Chinese (and Japanese) low profile wooden planes must surely have developed a technique for getting that 90dgrees? It seems a lot harder to keep the plane horizontal without a tote and a knob.
Lataxe
On jointing FWIW:
For panel glue ups, ripping on the table saw is my preferred method too. With my Forrest 30T rip blade, I rarely even have to clean any marks.
The times I have glued up panels from my 6" electric jointer it has been fine too, but I really don't favor using my power jointer unless I have to. The one tool in my shop I don't have any affection for whatsoever.
The times I have handplaned edges for panel glue ups (many times before I had a larger shop with bigger stationary tools) I was always able to match plane succesfully. I'm sure you know, L, but for those who don't, thats planing the two mating surfaces simultaneously so that any deviations from 90 degrees cancel each other out. Match planing works fine with a 7 as long as you aren't going over 5/4 or so for teh panel thickness.
When jointing edges that don't meet anything - the edge of shelf for example - perfect 90 is really not important. Most human eyes will not notice a few degrees difference and the overall impression might well end up more "handcrafted" in what I think is a good way. Those minor deviations are merely indications that the piece was not built by a machine or to machine tolerances.
I would like to joint rough, bent edges with only a try plane - just to get the skill. Will I have to buy yet another (Western style) plane to enable the necessary control?
Depending upon how "rough" and "bent" you are envisioning here, you may want to buy a drawknife and maybe a jack plane to do the vast majority of the removal before getting out the jointer plane to perfect the straight and 90.
If you are really concerned about 90, and don't want to go the match route, just make yourself a long shooting board.
S,
I have them drawknives and one or two other vicious edges of similar ilk. I take your point about getting the really rough areas of the edge approaching flat before turning to the try or jointer plane. In fact, I already do this when getting planks ready to be finally dimensioned on the TS.
NB an electric plane is very useful for taking out the worst of a severe cup and/or bulge from the edges of boards. :-O
As to a chuting board for them edges - I don't fancy the 8-footer that would be needed for the current project (the trestle table top). :-)
Lataxe
Drawknifes? Now you're talking my language. This was my outdoor workbench late yesterday afternoon. That ornamental cedar log is being converted from something generally round to something generally square before boards are ripped out of it with a handsaw filed for a ripping cut.
PS: Yes, the hatchet will leave a little tearout.
Ed,
That is one fine drawknife - full metal job with them bits o' handle clagged on. I want it!
However, I see you have a new-fangled axe. You must rush down to the tool store and get one o' them Granfors carving axes, forged by Svedish men. They can square a round or take the face of a big log in no time as they are sharpened by goblins, under the mountains.
Of course, you must watch the fingers of the hand steadying the log - indeed, the whole hand or even the arm. Them thangs is sharp!
Also, where is your lataxe? Rip saws are too new-fangled and you must cleave. Again, speak to them Svedes (who call them froes).
Lataxe, a froe-wielder and axeman.
Lataxe,<!----><!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
I have followed this discussion with much interest and I think you're missing something. It does not take a lot of money to make a straight perpendicular edge on a board. You could even tack/screw a straight fence board to your Japanese plane and get a straight/perpendicular edge on your boards for glue-up. I can't wait to see the video of moir dancing across the shed whilst shaving a perfet edge on them 8' long boards!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
I believe it would give Mr. Cheribini pause.<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
As for the scalloped shapes on the top of your boards I suspect Mr. Marcou might frown on this. This experimenting with cambered edges on his plane blades are not what he had in mind. I could be wrong but I think he is a much more subtle man and would prefer to see a shallower scallop.<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Last I knew he found me via Yahoo! But he has yet to visit my humble woodshop. I suspect that was a ploy to get me away from protecting Rays' Indian which you desire to place between your loins. Harumph, harumph. I know, it's the joy of feeling all that power!<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
As to your desires to make a perfectly square edge on your 8' long boards I will offer you a spare Stanley #7 jointer plane. I've fettled it to take a fine shaving, but you may want to hone it to .0000000000005 thou as it currently only is capable of .0000034 thou. I must practice more! Perhaps the addition f a Hock blade or a Lie Nielsen might improve it.<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
It will be posted to you with a sufficient supply of my perfected Granite Flakes so as to hone it to your satisfaction.
philip: please take note of this.
I have taken Mels suggestion as to correct calibrating of the micron microscope callibration. It came repleat with the properly sized hammer which I missed in the setup instructions.
Highfigh: Those damn things are enormous aren't they! We have much work to do.
Now, I must get back to the Queen.
Regards,
<!----><!---->Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
but you may want to hone it to .0000000000005 thou .. How much is that in MM? I had a good laugh at your post.They had a Electron Microscope where I worked. I came in so often to 'look' they would not let me in anymore?EDIT: I forgot.. They just used it to looks a paper fibers? I could live a 100 years on what that thing cost!Edited 9/25/2007 8:46 pm by WillGeorge EDIT 2:A herd of Mad cows .. I had some in my back Yard and I heard the Bull say.. I think we are HOME!
Edited 9/25/2007 8:48 pm by WillGeorge
Hey Will,
My post with the pic was a poke at Mel. He's a great guy. Helped me out a bunch.
Got a real laugh at your post a while back about blowing all the dust/chips outa your shop with the leaf blower. I'll never forget that one!
Love Ya,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
My post with the pic was a poke at Mel. He's a great guy. I know.. Why I posted!
"Highfigh: Those damn things are enormous aren't they! We have much work to do."The boulders? Yeah, I had to take a knee after that episode.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Lataxe,
You really don't need a jig for this degree of camber. two fingers of pressure on one side of the iron, followed by the same on the other side duirng the last half doz strokes will produce enough camber so that the sides do not dig on a fine cut.
some time ago I saw a diamond plate that was made very slightly hollow for this purpose. wouldn't bother myself. I would be very surprised if finger pressure didnt work even in a jig.
Dave
Dave,
I believe your general message - practice until you get the skill to joint well by hand - is what I should do. I am too used to the machines doing all that jigging for me, with their fences and feed rollers. :-)
I will perservere with the Mujinfang try plane - it is a lovely thang to take shavings with, despite its low cost and "primitive" technology.
Of course, I have been trying to persuade Philip to make a 22 incher of brass and steel........(a different kinda lovely).
Lataxe
Lataxe,
If you want to do nice long square flat edge on your boards, why not just make a nice long shooting board?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"If you want to do nice long square flat edge on your boards, why not just make a nice long shooting board"?
Mel, Ah divn't fancy the 8 foot chute, man.
Lataxe, who's shed is already chocka-block.
Lataxe,
What about a fence for you Mujinfang thang?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Pretty common, just not under the tradename Mujingfang I suppose. How do you think the made all those amazing pieces of furniture?
View ImageChris Scholz
Handtools for Discriminating Woodworkers
Galoot-Tools
Bob,
Not only a fence, for the Mujingfang, but also a tote and a knob have been considered. Of course, I am wary of mucking up that beautiful ebony body with inset screw threads and such; but perhaps this is one answer to my jointing difficulty.
If I could find another of them I would buy it to experiemnt on (at least, I would at £50). At present I can find no retailers in Britain. Perhaps someone knows where the Mujingfang try planes can be had (other than ebay I mean)?
Lataxe
I have been trying to persuade Philip to make a 22 incher of brass and steel........(a different kinda lovely).
I'd like one myself - wouldn't that be a sight to behold?
Lee
Lee,
You should pester the bloke as well, to make a 22-incher. I believe he has certain technical difficulties concerning the length. Motivation is required, in the form of many waiting dollars and pounds, so that he will overcome them technicalities with an overwhelming desire to become richer. :-)
Lataxe
Lataxe,
Consider it done! I also have mentioned to him the need for a high quality 2 kilo adjustable mouth block plane. Didn't get a reply but I'm sure he bookmarked the idea for later use, that way I won't get full credit;)
You know, something somewhere in between Lie Nielsen ($150) and Karl Holtley ($4200)
Cheers,
Lee
"without an electron microscope to measure, we cannot really be precise with our honing. No woodworking shop should be without one. And it needs to be covered when not in use. Dust is its enemy."I had a particle of dust on mine and the wind caught it while I was looking through the thing. Thought a boulder was coming at me!
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
It does not seem a nice option to me: that is because I don't like files, so that may not be a good reason. If I am to knock the corners off then I prefer to do it by a few strokes on the side of the stone or if a diamond plate then it can be done without scoring the surface.
For harder blades as in A2 and D2 steels the file is not going to be happy and I would suspect that unless you are careful, there would be damage to the file.
I think it is more convenient to use the stone edge.Philip Marcou
Thank you for the help.
It's a tradeoff - a camber to avoid plane tracks but effectively decreases the width of the blade and introduces a slight corrugated effect to the surface (which some assert is very desirable). In your case, and with very slight projection the area planed can be quite small and the effect on the surface unwanted. With that tiny amount of projection all you need to do is barely knock the corners off the plane iron, assuming the iron sits square in the mouth to begin with.
I would slightly camber a jointer because it does make it easier to plane out an edge bevel.
Edited 9/25/2007 12:46 pm ET by BossCrunk
Boss Crunk,
I haven't seen you for a while.
It is good to see you back.
You are the rubber band that keeps pulling us back to common sense.
Keep it up.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Lataxe, my dear fellow,
Well it seems to me that you've answered your own query, haven't you? Great deep cambers for them as likes to see those troughs that show it's done by hand, and less of a scoop for them as wants a more subtile effect.
Me, I don't try to measure the things, just bear down on the corners when I'm at the whetstone. If things get a little out of hand, camberwise, next time I'll bear down more in the center of the blade.
I do not camber the trying plane blade. Sometimes I'm foolish enough to shoot an edge with the thing, and like you, it seems to me, that a curved edge will make a hollowed joint. If the edge be out of square, planing both it and its mate at the same time cancels out the variance. For other times when an edge must be absolutely square to the face, I have knocked the blade a little skow-wow so it rakes more off one corner than the other. Mostly, I try to try the edge right on the first try, before the whole exercise becomes too trying.
Ray
Just in the nick of time - solutions to problems nobody has.
Phew, I feel better already. Keep it coming.
I probably would have "innovated" a miserable hunk of iron that needed hours of flattening straight into the trash bin. But, I've always been better at writing checks than straining at gnats.
Edited 9/24/2007 4:43 pm ET by BossCrunk
Ah, Cloverstopperitis.
Had a 13hh skewbald pony mare with that when I was about 13. Called Peggy which was short for Pegasus 'cause she made boys fly (off). She died of pneumonia at over 25 years but still remembered.
Dave
dan.
Aww don't pay too much attention to what I say. Half the time its the liquor talking.
I recently wore out an old Ohio Tool Co iron I was using in a home made smoothing plane. Got a brand-spanking new blade by Hock. It stays sharp longer than the old worn out one. Maybe as long as the old one used to, before I got out of the temper.
Q: How many true Virginians does it take to change a light bulb?
A: 4 --One to change the bulb, and 3 to stand around and talk about how GOOD the OLD bulb used to be.
Ray
Hey
Its nice to wind down after a long day and fire off a couple of ideas... even if they are a little cloudy at times. Things are starting to cool down a bit here on the Piedmont so I'm getting back to the bench again.
D
Given that the M20A is meant for shooting, end grain as well as long grain, maybe 15 degree bed would be better....?
Ignoring the fact that as a self confessed sufferer of mar-cow's disease, you really oughta be shot, thrown into a deep pit and enbalmed under a couple of feet of quick lime ;P~~~ your line above reminded me of recent experience with the current project..
For reasons that I'll skip over (not really important right now), I needed to plane out saw marks left in over a metre of end grain that had an overall width of about 1 1/2" give or take... Focusing on the length, and desire to have a smooth, level face on this edge, I reached for my #6 without thinking... the blade was fresh off the stone, made light work of the saw marks and in no time at all I'd achieved the desired finish...
Then it dawned on me... the #6 is fitted with a york pitch frog... in light of this, bearing in mind I'm working with sycamore, I reckon low angle isn't so important when working with hardwoods.Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Hi Mike
Shooting with a high angle of attack is fine. I do it often with a HNT Gordon Trying Plane (60 degree bed) ...
View Image
... and get decent shavings too ...
View Image
But I get a smoother cut with a low cutting angle, such as a 37 degree included angle on the LV LA Jack.
Still, a sharp blade helps in every case.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Still, a sharp blade helps in every case.
never known it to hinder anything Derek ;)Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Squire,
"This S45 may see an additional blade from His Excellency in due course, with a 5 or 10 degree back bevel on it. There may even be an attempt to configure a blade so it can be reversed (put in bevel up) to act as a small scraper plane."
At first I tried back bevel blades on that little plane not expecting too much, as the plane is even shorter than a number three, although the blade is a bit wider. However a ten degrees back bevel allowed easy planing of some nasty stuff-against the grain, leaving an entirely acceptable finish. I think there are 4 reasons for this-it may be small but it has weight, the handle set up, the fact that the screw cap is massive with no chance of blade deflection and there is almost no lost motion in the adjuster.
So you will indeed receive an extra blade with back bevel.
I am also about to try out a blade ground at 45 degrees,to be used bevel up in that plane, as soon as it returns from heat treatment- if it performs it will be sent to you- er, even though I am wedded to the use of hand/card type scrapers....Philip Marcou
LT,
The shavings onboard are easy on the eye's thank you , in a word the pics are " provocative "
nicely done
dusty , the Marcouless
Lataxe,
It seems your results with these planes would once again confirm that whether it is bevel up or bevel down, effective cutting angle has a great bearing on the quality of the surface left on hard to plane woods. I do however have a question. In one pic you were grinding a 10 degree back bevel on one of the plane irons, was this for one of the bevel down or bevel up planes?
Ron
Ron,
The back-bevel grind pic is one of Philip's. He is going to send me an S45 blade with such a grind to see if it will allow a quick blade-swap to make the plane capable of dealing with difficut grain. (A 10 degree back bevel will increase the cutting angle from 45 to 55, as you will realise).
Back bevels are hard to do, or so I'm told. Philip says he has devised his jig to do them easily on a grinder. The "test" will also be whether I can maintain this back bevel to a sufficient standard when the blade needs re-honing. (I use hand-held scary sharp with no jig unless a regrind is necessary; but I have no jig that will do a 5 or 10 degree angle).
Lataxe
Lataxe
I have, in fact, seen the blade that Philip has prepared for you with a 10 degree backbevel. He has a rather nifty jig that he uses on his surface grinder. I offered to trade him 147 pairs of shoes and 79 frocks from my wardrobe for one of the new planes, and he was apparently sorely tempted (but in the end declined).
A backbevel is not difficult to do. It is the same as honing a normal microbevel (in other words, you do not need to remove much metal to create a BB). It appears, however, that you lack a honing guide, which does make the task easier. I'm sure you could find one and calculate the desired 10 degrees. I do a free personalised sharpening service, but the delivery fees are payable in advance. I don't mind Business Class.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 9/6/2007 6:21 am ET by derekcohen
Derek,
Travel from the antipodes involves a long flight and that requires comforts. Thus 1st class is the only way to go. As you only like business class I will have to larn higher-shapnin' by myself.
A pity, as I was hoping to see you in one of them frocks. :-)
Am I right to think a Veritas MkII jig will sharpen stuff at very narrow angles? I would rather try (at first) to maintain the back bevel by hand on the micro-grit paper (less time and expense). But if needs-must.....
Of course, I only like straight edges (no curve for me) so the hand-hone becomes a bit easier.
Lataxe, fashion critic.
Am I right to think a Veritas MkII jig will sharpen stuff at very narrow angles? I would rather try (at first) to maintain the back bevel by hand on the micro-grit paper (less time and expense). But if needs-must.....
Dear Lataxe
Here is a simple jig - my version of Brent Beach's design - to use in creating a backbevel.
View Image
View Image
Here it is honing a microbevel on the face. Just reverse the blade for the backbevel and set the blade angle at 10 degrees.
And if you wear one of those frocks, then Bob's your aunty.
Regards from Perth
Derek (who now wishes he had asked for first class)
Derek,
I will pinch that sharpening jig design wot you pinched yourself and perhaps even try to improve it (cosmetics only - now where are them knurled brass nuts and campaign-chest corners).
Backbevels - yet another adventuresome distraction from making furniture. :-)
Lataxe, a 3rd-hander and navel-gazer.
PS Thank you for yet another piece of practical WW wisdom. If only you had Capitalist instincts instead of the full set of human ones; you would be a rich publisher of DVDs by now instead of a happy and admired altruist. Hero.
"Am I right to think a Veritas MkII jig will sharpen stuff at very narrow angles?"
Yes, it will. The back-bevel settings on the registration jig are at 10°, 13°, 15°, 17° and 20°.
-Steve
happy shavings!
dave
Lataxe,
The most important factor in attaining Nirvana is to have a good set of priorities. You got your priorities straight. BUY AND USE GREAT TOOLS. Buy all you can get. Thanks for the photos and the explanation of the workings of Philip's masterpieces.
If I ever go into business, I want you to be the head of Sales. One needs an extraordinarily nice guy to go that, and you could be the nicest guy on Knots.
Buy more of Philip's planes and keep posting photos. Then adopt me so that I get the planes next.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
You offer: "If I ever go into business, I want you to be the head of Sales".
Ooh-er! You will get me accused of buzzin for The Marcou!! Perhaps I must now mention the one or two glitches and foibles, in case you believe I am nobbut a drooling fan?
In truth there were some but they were very minor as the planes were prototypes. Also, I was determined to find summick to carp about. I have now righted the glitches so the chest is inflating a bit and before long I will consider myself an engineer. (No I won't).
I will give Philip the chance to enter the discussion before getting all "critical-customer".
Lataxe
I know, failed to note that because I am not a user of shooting boards- thanks for pointing it out, some folks may not have known that.
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