12″ SCMS Blade.. Amana or… ??
SARGEgrinder47
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
I’m in the market for a 12″ SCMS blade with the standard 5* degree negative hook. But… I want a 1/8″ full kerf as I do all cross-cutting on my 12″ SCMS and that means some pretty hard species where a thin kerf will have a tendency to deflect in that diameter blade.
The only offering I have found so far is Amana in a full kerf 12″. I have never used an Amana on any saw, so I have no real knowledge of it period. I know it’s German made and that’s the basic extent of what I do know.
Has anyone used Amana that can provide a their “take” on it? Has anyone used the 12″ 72T SCMS full kerf? And finally.. any other brand recommendations on a 12″ in a full 1/8 kerf for SCMS’s?
Thanks in advance for any in-sight provided…
Sarge.. jt
Replies
Sarge, Have you tried the Forrest chopmaster? I know it's not a full kerf (1/8") blade but they do work very well. The 3/32" width of this blade works better on these saws because they're generally underpowered. I have found that when the spinning blade slows down too far in a heavy cut is when it seems deflection increases. So with less blade going through the wood the RPM's stay up. Most , if not all, of these saws don't allow the use of a blade stabilizer which could help. I'm not sure what the hook angle is on the Forrest but they offer a 1/8" version also, I believe.
Paul
Afternoon Paul...
I am running a Freud 72 T SCMS at this at this point and am getting a slight deflection in white oak and hickory in 16/4 stock. I have the newer Hitachi 12" SCMS and at this point, don't believe power is the issue. The new ones are pretty beefy as I sold my excellent Hitachi 10" which could be a tad suspect on power in really thick stock. That thickness in those particular woods is going to present a challenge to any 12" blade or SCMS but the beefiest, IMO.
Could be power.. but I doubt it. A blade stiffener (which I have sitting in a drawer) would be the cure with the Freud but as you stated, most of these SCMS won't accept one as the arbor bolt is just too short. I would love for the manufacturers to turn me loose designing SCMS's and bench-top mortise machines. Only when you have "been there" do you understand where the real needs lie in some of these machines they hustle to market. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Thanks for your reply as I have an afternoon of errands ahead...
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
My Dewalt 12" SCMS sure seems underpowered and is helped by the thin kerf. Your Hitachi that good? It seems Dewalt has been passed up by plenty of other manufacturers in design and quality of late. Let's see........ How can I wear out my Dewalt faster............?
Paul
ps Sarge, you're always so cordial , polite and willing to share. Thanks.
colebaeranimals,
Sorry to interject here but I have a Dewalt SCMS and regularly use it to cut white oak/ black walnut. I haven't found any motor weakness at all! and I really push the limits on beams as wide as 12 inches and up to the 4 inch depth..
On occasion when rushed and my big 16 inch Mikita is elsewhere I'll saw 1/2 way thru a 6 inch beam, flip it and finish the cut on the other side. You'll be hard pressed to tell I did it. a few moments with a ROS will totally eliminate any sign of a line..
Hi frenchy,
Maybe my take on this comes from using a big monster Delta radial arm saw for years that would power through the heaviest and hardest of woods like it wasn't even there. Not that accurate, though. Couldn't hardly give it away. Generally, do you use thin or standard kerf blades in your SCMS?
Paul
Paul
I normally use the Dewalt blade that it came with (I've worn several out so it's actaully not That blade but another like it. It's a thin kerf blade..
I'll switch blades to chop copper tubing or something but the Dewalt blade is most often on it..
Afternoon Paul...
Back sooner than expected as my local was out of 12/4 stock I was seeking as a contractor took a large bite of their stock. I'll ride up to Toccoa, Ga. tomorrow and moouch off of a friend.
"Your Hitachi that good"?..... Paul
****
It's pretty beefy. I had to get used to the initial jump from the torque when you first squeeze the trigger. You pause breifly and let it rev up a mocro-second and then you proceed.
Would you believe that it has so much torque that I had to install a $4000 Air Ride System on it to smooth out the ride? Otherwise it will pull the 5" lag screws anchoring it down to oak right out.
Then.. would you believe I had to install KYB gas shocks to keep the 3" lag bolts intact?
I didn't think so.... but we're having a good time telling tall tales anyway, so all is not lost.. ha..ha... ha..ha..ha..
Seriously, I didn't have much problem with my 10" Hitachi until you got over 12/4, then you had to be patient and let the blade tell you how to feed. This 12" just mows it down and ask questions latter. :>)
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
Edited 6/29/2007 3:33 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
SARGE grinder47,
I've used Amana and freud, Dewalt, and Systematic I should say that I own those.. I also used for a while a Forest on test.. Each one is differant for a differant purpose so I've never done a back to back comparison with any blade except that Forest.
I'm tough on blades.. I make a lot of cuts and I need to push the saw to it's limits, no dainty little cuts for me, Great big chunks of white oak and black walnut come under my blades. 12x4 is the limit unless I make two cuts.
What I've found out is that the Forest blade when pushed as hard as the rest of my blades didn't really outshine any other blade..
I will say that the Dewalt winds up being sharpened more often than the others but in part that's because I have that one of those blades in more often than the others.
I use 12 inch blades on both my table saw and my SCMS. However when I use thin kerf blades on my table saw to rip I need blade stabilizers. Still the blade wanders too much for my liking unless I'm ripping thinner, softer stock.
My Amana has worked well for me.. (within it's limits)
Afternoon Frenchy...
Just about to head out the door on errands. Thanks for the heads-up on that Amana. I have a feeling that those that use one are limited as they don't spend big $$ on advertising.
I'm guessing when sharp it should preform fine as about any blade.. and with my SCMS limited to cross-cutting, my c-c blades don't see wood as often as my 24 T rip blades which is constantly. I run CMT 24T full kerfs on the TS ripping and am delighted with CMT.
CMT's SCMS 12" blade is a TK like the Freud though and I would like to run a full kerf at this point on those hard-woods for the above mentioned reasons explained to Paul. Basically the same ones you mentioned yourself on other than softer woods.
Thanks again my brother-in-arms (VN)....
Sarge.. jt
Sarge,
Just FYI, the parent company of Amana is Dimar in Israel. They have a fairly large subsidiary in Canada, as well as other manufacturing plants. Because the main factory is only 30 minutes away from me I'm pretty familiar with their sawblades, and we've used them for years in our shop.
On our tablesaws we run various Amana 14" blades, which give excellent service. I haven't used the 12" blade you speak of, but in general I can't believe you'd go wrong with one of their blades.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Afternoon David... well it is afternoon here at least... :>)
Thank you for your reply on the Amana's. I knew they were using German steel, but was not aware of the Dimar connection which is interesting. I think I will Google and find out more as that got my attention.
And the fact that a professional shop as yours uses them daily with a "thumbs up" is all the convincing I need. Besides they are relatively cheap compared to others due to non-excessive advertising.
I suppose the icing on the cake is the Israeli connection. I figure any country that alleviated all countries "jet fighter pilots" dilemma of not being able to physically see anything from their 5 o'clock position back by installing U.S. auto exterior rear view mirrors on the outside of the cock-pit is smart enough to build a saw-blade that only has to sever wood.
And in gratitude, if you know any Israeli fighter pilots that want to customize their "rides", I will send you some black 77" Trans Am "Smokey and the Bandit" exterior rear views auto-graphed by Burt Reynolds we have back in our restoration shop. BTW.. sorry but Sally Fields is not part of the package offered. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
And on a serious note, thank you very much again for your endorsement as I will probably pick up one Sunday (here) at Highland Woodworking and take it on a performance ride, even though still open to any other suggestions for full kerfs.
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
Edited 6/29/2007 3:57 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge, you gave me a good laugh with the reference to fighter pilots...Actually the son of a close friend is a Cobra helicopter pilot, but I don't think he needs the mirror. Anybody old enough to know who Burt Reynolds is has been retired from flying for a long time now...
Actually, a factory like Dimar deserves a lot of credit. "Building a sawblade that only has to sever wood" requires dogged insistence on QC standards. It doesn't come naturally - Israelis are much more adept at on-the-fly solutions. We tend to improvise a solution to anything rather than doing it perfectly in the first place.
I'd be interested to hear your reactions after a test drive of the Amana blade.
best, David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Greeting David.. (that detours the time issue :>)
No mirror needed on the Cobra.. the new stuff has come a long way, baby! I ran a Ranger 6 man hunter-killer team in VN and was issued a "star-light" scope and rifle mount. I had to have a top secret security clearance to be issued it and had to let's say, take a little oath on how to handle the situation before letting it be captured by enemy (at the time anyway as they now export a ton of products to us.... :>)..).
About 2 years after I returned from VN in 1969, I saw illustrated blue-prints for the scope printed in Time Magazine. Yep.. things have come a long way in that arena indeed. A long way...
"Actually, a factory like Dimar deserves a lot of credit. "Building a sawblade that only has to sever wood" requires dogged insistence on QC standards.... David
I was kidding around as I have a strong tendency to do on a pretty regular basis. :>)... I agree with you whole-heartedly that QC is the key to consistently produce excellent products that keeps the customer coming back along with customer service on a lower note.
I did some searching yesterday and was amazed at just how extensive a line of saw blades Amana has. Just in WW alone I would estimate that they had over 150 various entries in all shapes and configurations. I stopped looking when I got to the 24" blades as I suspect that is about as large as I will ever need personally. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
It became obvious that Amana is not just a small concern that caters to the week-end warrior. These guys and gals are industrial strength and cater mainly to industry. The A.G.E. line is the lowest in the pecking order targeted for the occasional shop.
I always wondered where I could get blades if I moved up to a 12" TS (which I almost did) as the offerings by the more WW mag tauted blade companies have few choices in 12" and virtually none beyond that I see frequently. Well.. now I know as Amana can outfit you with about any blade you could possibly have a need for up to 24" as unfolded to me in my search yesterday.
I'm going to try one and discovered that Butler Saw & Sharpening about 4 miles from me is an Amana dealer. I knew they catered to the local industry and pro shops but was not even aware they carried the Amana's an several other industrial blade lines. So the search turned up some positive results that will be a bonus in my future dealings even for a one-man non-pro shop.
I will let you know what I think when I get some time logged on one of the Amana's. And again.. thanks for the "heads up". And hey.. watch it on that "old enough to know"... I prefer to think I have just been around the block several times. Perhaps one trip too many... :>)
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
If you have a local distributor, you might also look at CMT's bladeds.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Morning DG...
Thanks for your thoughts. Highland Woodworking is a distributor for CMT and Amana here in Atlanta. Their CMT SCMS blade is thin kerf also putting it in the same range as the Freud I am now running. The Freud is excellent over-all, but I was getting a slight bit of deflection on some tall hard-wood crown molding. I don't do much molding, so it could have been just being unfamiliar with technique as the fence.. table.. blade.. and angle adjustments were all re-checked and sitting on the bulls-eye as they were out of the Hitachi box when I first checked them. I have no problems with straight 16/4 cross-cuts on stock coming in the door to be sized for the wood rack or finish cross-cuts in 10/4 down for that matter.
I took a break from the shop yesterday and took a little Sunday cruise to Highland. I picked up the Amana 12" SCMS blade along with a back-up 10" CMT 24T rip blade. I have been using the CMT 24T full kerf rip blade exclusively on my Uni-saw dedicated for ripping since the day I first turned it on. It replaced a Freud 24T full kerf which I used to run. Both are excellent blades at a reasonable price just as the current Freud SCMS. But.. there's just the slight deflection on miter cuts that is comes up short of meshing 45* corners with a perfect "butt kiss".
Probably good thing I'm not a trim carpenter with daily need. ha.. ha...
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
Morning Sarge;
Have you tried CMT's 219.090.12? It's a full kerf (.118") with a 5 degree negative hook and 90 teeth. The plate thickness is .098". Tooth configuration is ATB+1 TC. I use it for the miters on stain grade mantels and they come out with perfect fit.
------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Hey DG..
I have not and was not aware of it until you posted. I went to the CMT site for a look as Highland doesn't list it or carry it. Thanks for the heads up on that one, as it may be just the ticket I'm looking for.
Butler Saw and Sharpenig in on the way for me to work this afternoon and they are also a CMT dealer. I will stop by and see if they have it. What have you been paying for it generally?
Again thanks...
Sarge.. jt
They retail around here for about a hundred bucks. Not cheap, but the perfect cuts are worth it.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Thanks DG. Around $100 is about the going price for a 12" 90T for a SCMS here also in the tauted brands. I won't pay that kind of money for a rip blade, but the SCMS see's far fewer cuts and stock surface than a rip blade and will stay sharp quite a while, so $100.. give or take is very reasonable IMO..
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
Edited 7/2/2007 12:42 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge, I use my SCMS almost all day everyday. My work is just about anything that goes on or in a house, from siding to stairs, kitchens and furniture. Kitchens can be the most demanding since there are often multiple layers of large hardwood moldings that are pre-finished. They never give you any extra. When you commit to a cut, it better be right. Of all the different types and brands of blades I've used, Freud seems to be the least expensive and on a par with higher priced blades.
I'm looking for longevity as well as perfection in the cut. I find the lower tooth counts actually give a better performance than the fine tooth blades. They last longer, can cost less and are less expensive to sharpen. With many moldings, you are chopping rather than sliding and that's hard on blades. It's typical to face different species, too. A blade that can handle a 5" maple crown one day should handle 8" pine risers the next. Compound cuts, like mitering a red oak open skirt board, seem to put the most strain on a blade and this is where the boys get separated from the men.
The Freud LUR012 is a good blade. If you have to have the ultimate glass smooth cut, the LU80R12, a 2° 96 tooth croscutter, is a good choice. Amana makes nice blades and bits. Leitz makes some of the heaviest pro blades I've seen. Simonds may have a neg hook, also a heavy industrial blade. Most of the ordinary full bodied blades will cut a kerf of .118+- which isn't quite 1/8". CMT and Tenryu are also good choices for slider blades. I saw a 100 tooth Tenryu at a supplier a while ago, I think it was full bodied. Hope this helps, these blades are too expensive to hang on the wall, and I have a few that aren't much good for anything else.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Afternoon Hammer...
I actually have the Freud 12" 72 tooth count. On a 12" I calculate 72 T to be about 60 T compared to a 10" as it's a bigger radius on the plate. I simply cross-cut on my SCMS as it has been prepped to handle stock up to 16' that comes in the shop door with the average of that being 10'-14'. And even when cross-cutting for a finish cut that will be seen, I prefer to smooth the end grain by leaving it proud and taking the last swipe with a block plane or a Veritas low angle smoother.
So as you.. for my intentions and how I go about getting a final result, the higher tooth blades won't ever see duty in my shop. I feel they are not necessary under the circumstances I create and frankly, I just don't like the way they cut period as smooth can be achieved in more ways than just having a high $$, high tooth count blade you have to switch back and forth as I am a firm believer in using the proper tooth count for a given job.
My cross-cutting SCMS gets a 72 T, the Uni-saw gets a 24 T for ripping and my 2nd TS gets a 40 T as it it set up strictly for panel cutting on the rare occasions I use them. I dedicate those blades to those saws and don't have to make a change except to clean pitch or replace when dull.
The Freud SCMS 12" you mentioned is an excellent blade but I am getting a slight deflection on 3" and 4" hard-wood with it and suspect the TK is the source of that. I ran a Freud 10" SCMS (5* negative hook) on my Hitachi 10" SCMS and had no problems. But.. I would flip the piece over when using 4" or more thick (16/4) stock. I have a 5" capability with the H 12" and want to see if I can meet it without deflection or flipping.
Maybe so.. maybe not... time will tell as I will try the Amana 12" in full kerf. It's not that expensive and if nothing else, I have a back up blade as I always keep two blades on hand (one on saw and one on ready) as I don't have time to wait on sharpening as a general rule. I keep several back-up BS blades on hand also in various widths and tooth configurations, so adding another blade for me is not an un-foreseen expense. I don't have a cell phone, so and extra blades can be had in lieu of a cell phone stuck in my ear 24 hours a day and a bill for having it there to boot. :>)
Thanks for your in-sight, espectially on the trim moldings from an everyday source as you are....
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
Edited 6/29/2007 6:25 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Hey Sarge - There's a Leitz distributor on Woodnet clearing out a pile of Leitz made German blades. His name is Mike Jackson and he goes by the handle "XCESSTOOLING". I've tried several and all have been very good at darn near unbeatable prices. He's got a Delta Industrial 35-654 12" 80T ATB w/neg hook for $30 made by Leitz.
There's a ton of excellent choices. Any from Ridge Carbide, Forrest, Infinity, Freud's upper level, DeWalt's upper level, Delta Industrial, Tenryu....pick a deal and go for it.
Edited 6/29/2007 8:20 pm ET by Knotscott
Evening Knotscott..
Does Mike have a web-site? I am familiar with Holbren that also sells Leitz at quite a bargain from another small WW site I post on. Everyone there raves over the Leitz blades they purchased from him.
Leitz is in the picture as after doing some deep research this afternoon, I discovered the Amana (which I'm beginning to realize is a excellent industrial blade BTW the deeper I dig) 12" MD 12-726TB is a 5* neg hook.. has a .110 kerf but.... has about the same thickness plate as the Freud. So.. in actuality it's a form of TK, just with a wider kerf than the .090 Freud. I'm really looking for a full kerf and a thicker plate to get where I feel I need to be on this call.
The good news is I have discovered some things that will continue to keep me away from the expensive hyped blades that most think are a cure for any given task. There are some better values out there IMO that will do as good and in some cases possibly even a better job at a lower cost with some "heads up" and the the willingness to "give them a shot".
Thanks for your suggestions as I will pursue and if he has a web-site I would appreciate if you post it.
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
Holbren sells the Tenryu and Ridge Carbide....he's terrific to deal with. Since you're a member, you can use the "BT310" code for 10% off. If you don't see what you want, give him a call or an email and ask...sometimes he has stuff that's not on his website. You can search "XCESSTOOLING" on Woodnet to find Mike's Leitz listing, or email him - [email protected]. Leitz makes the HO Schumacher & Sohn line, along with several others....they used to make the Delta Industrial and Irwin Woodworking series too.
Thanks for the clarification KS... I have heard Holbren mentioned mucho on the BT site. Seems I have heard wind of Mike from somewhere, but in what might be called a "senior moment?, I can't re-call where.
And as mentioned already in this thread, the Ridge and Tenryu are excellent blades from all the scuttle I have heard on them. Their is another one I can't re-call that is made in Canada that I used several years ago. It was also excellent, but by the time you got it through customs.. it turned out to be a bit over-priced on the U.S. market.
BTW.. what handle do you use at BT3? I have a feeling I might know you from the dark-side. ha.. ha... ha.. ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
A darksider I am! I'm "Dustmight" over at BT3....that handle came about several years ago, but their format won't allow me to change it, so "DM" it is.
Morning Dustmight...
And of course I know you as everybody knows everybody over on the "dark-side" and that's what makes it a good place to visit, IMO. :>) And I'm sure you know I post as SARGE..g-47 as with you, it would be a major hassle to get it changed to just Sarge.
I used to post here under just SARGE several years ago, but I was absent awhile after Taunton made the computer change. When I came back to visit I had to set up as Sarge..grinder47 to get access as someone occupied my old handle even though I am not aware of them posting often.
I prefer just Sarge as I am just Sarge at http://www.yearone.com where I have worked part time for 9 years after closing my own company. Unless you were in management there or pay-roll, they wouldn't know who john t was and that's a a fact. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge.. jt
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